Hillary

[rstrong]

Well, if you're arguing that we have a government full of mostly corrupt idiots, I'm not inclined to disagree!

I'm arguing that Hillary vs. Trump isn't corrupt idiot vs. corrupt idiot. Hillary is corrupt but competent. And even then she's no more corrupt - and often a lot less - than ANYONE in the 2012 or 2016 Republican clown cars.

[Vrede too]

So far, understanding that we'll never be unanimous on each item, the list includes:

She's better than Trump (or any other Republican).
Tried to get us single payer healthcare 25 years ago, and took a truckload of unwarranted personal heat for it.
Once having left Arkansas she never went back ("probably" a positive for her and Arkansas).
Hillary has the most directly applicable professional experience of most any other Presidential candidate, ever. And in all those jobs, she has done a competent job.
Building relationships and bridges. Hillary understands that.
Will try to overturn Citizens United and increase transparency in campaign funding.
No worse than Colin Powell and Jeb!
Corrupt but competent. (not sure about "idiot". rstrong? )

2 book titles:

Corrupt but competent, the Hillary Clinton Presidency

Decision 2016: Corrupt but Competent vs. Corrupt but Incompetent

[O Really]

I'm not sure either of them is really corrupt anymore. Not after the latest lowering the bar of acceptable behaviour by the Supremes in McDonnell
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 4_ljgm.pdf

But in any case, I'd rather have corrupt and competent vs. incompetent rock of integrity any day. I offer one James Earl Carter, an honest and probably incorruptible person who wasn't that bad a President considering what he had to work with, but was not the most competent person who ever held the office and pretty much torpedoed his Presidency (as well as his potential second term) with the Iran mess. Worst, of course, is slimy and shoddy - and the examples are obvious.

[Vrede too]

Supreme Court Legalizes Influence Peddling: McDonnell v. United States

Disgraced Governor Walks as SCOTUS Loosens Bribery Law

[rstrong]

I offer one James Earl Carter, an honest and probably incorruptible person who wasn't that bad a President considering what he had to work with, but was not the most competent person who ever held the office and pretty much torpedoed his Presidency (as well as his potential second term) with the Iran mess.

Even then, Reagan's adventure in Lebanon made Carter look like a military genius. Selling weapons to Iran and using the proceeds to arm terrorists in Central America doesn't help.

Carter probably could have handled Iran better, but not without getting the hostages killed. And there's credible claims from both Reagan's inner circle and the Iranian government that Reagan cut an arms-for-hostages deal to delay the release of the hostages until after the election.

On other issues Carter was far more competent. Reagan demonized Carter on regulations, on "big government", on not getting rid of the small national debt Carter inherited, etc. And yet if you did a blind comparison of both Presidents once in office, you'd easily declare Carter the small-government, fiscally conservative, deregulating Republican.

With his Fed appointee, Paul Volcker, Carter did the heavy lifting to slash inflation - which Reagan benefitted from. Even Ron Paul, a harsh critic of the Federal Reserve, said in a 2011 presidential debate that, "If I had to name a Federal Reserve chairman that did a little bit of good, that would be Paul Volcker."

Another supposed Republican trait: Not getting drawn into foreign wars. Reagan demonized Carter over his attempts to reduce reliance on foreign oil. Reagan administration junked the proposed 1995 mileage standard and the rest of Carter's energy program. He mocked alternative energy and ripped Carter's solar panels off the White House roof.

And so the US was instead drawn into Gulf War I, and the continued presence in Saudi Arabia led directly to 9/11 and the occupation of Afghanistan. Not to mention Gulf War II, the battle against ISIS, and various entanglements from Libya to Yemen. Carter wanted to avoid those.

[rstrong]

Bet bets for Hillary's running mate:

- Virginia Senator Tim Kaine

- Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack

[O Really]

Bet bets for Hillary's running mate:

- Virginia Senator Tim Kaine

- Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack

aarggh

[Vrede too]

aarggh

Ditto.

Save for unfortunate or poor execution by the military , the hostages might have been rescued, Carter would have been reelected and Reagan then Daddy Bush may have never been POTUS.

[O Really]

It's officially Kaine.

[Wneglia]

It's officially Kaine.

Kaine and Unable

[O Really]

I would have thought you right-wingers would have said "Kaine and Enable"
Either way, it will sound pretty good with "Madame President" in front of it.

[Vrede too]

Democratic National Convention Speakers

In a press release on July 15, the Hillary Clinton campaign and Democratic National Convention Committee issued a preliminary list of "headliner" speakers.

First night (Monday, July 25): Theme: "United Together."
Speakers: First Lady Michelle Obama
U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont
DREAMer activist Astrid Silva

Second night (Tuesday, July 26): Theme: "A Lifetime of Fighting for Children and Families"
Former President Bill Clinton
The Mothers of the Movement (mothers of children killed by gun violence)

Third night (Wednesday, July 27): Theme: "Working Together"
President Barack Obama
Vice President Joe Biden

Fourth night (Thursday, July 28): Theme: "Stronger Together"
Chelsea Clinton, daughter of Bill and Hillary Clinton
Presumptive nominee Hillary Clinton

Chelsea Clinton, will speak before her mother, Hillary Clinton, immediately before the latter's speech

On July 21, the convention organizers released an alphabetical list of other confirmed speakers (with time slots not yet set), as follows:

...

Celebrities who are speaking or performing at the convention include the following:

Speakers
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, retired professional basketball player - will speak
...

Performers
Snoop Dogg, rapper - will perform at a concert following convention's final night
Fergie Duhamel, singer - will headline charity benefit show at convention
Lady Gaga, singer - will perform at a concert in Camden, New Jersey across the Delaware River from Philadelphia
Cyndi Lauper and Idina Menzel, singers - will be performing at women's luncheon

Michelle Obama, Bernie Sanders a DREAMer & The Mothers of the Movement in primetime, plus Kareem, Snoop Dogg & Lady Gaga is pretty cool.

[Vrede too]

So far, understanding that we'll never be unanimous on each item, the list includes:

She's better than Trump (or any other Republican).
Tried to get us single payer healthcare 25 years ago, and took a truckload of unwarranted personal heat for it.
Once having left Arkansas she never went back ("probably" a positive for her and Arkansas).
Hillary has the most directly applicable professional experience of most any other Presidential candidate, ever. And in all those jobs, she has done a competent job.
Building relationships and bridges. Hillary understands that.
Will try to overturn Citizens United and increase transparency in campaign funding.
No worse than Colin Powell and Jeb!
Corrupt but competent, not slimy and shoddy.
Good DNC lineup.

[rstrong]

No worse than Colin Powell and Jeb!

Powell? Sure, they both used non-government mail servers as Secretary of State. But for all the legitimate complaints about Hillary's honesty, I don't think she ever did anything on the scale of lying to America to drag the country into war.

Jeb!? Yes, he used a non-government mail server too. But he also received $75,000 from a mob boss for trying to arrange a pardon with his dad. He SUCCEEDED in succeeded in getting his dad to grant safe haven to Orlando Bosch, who was responsible for bombings from South America to Florida to Canada, and even a car bomb in Washington DC. And of course bombing an airliner out of the sky, killing 73 people. Bosch's sponsors were the same Cuban-Americans in Miami who had fostered Jeb’s real estate business there.

I don't think Hillary did anything remotely on that scale.

[Vrede too]

... I don't think she ever did anything on the scale of lying to America to drag the country into war.

... I don't think Hillary did anything remotely on that scale.

At the least she believed the lies from Powell and other Shrubbery while most congressional Dems did not.
Supported the Libyan revolution - debatable intent, poor outcome.
Supported the Honduran military coup - a crime in my opinion.

Reasonable people might disagree with "remotely on that scale." Anyhow, the list is adjusted. I'll change the wording to whatever you'd like since these are all potential talking points rather than a consensus opinion.

So far, understanding that we'll never be unanimous on each item, the list includes:

She's better than Trump (or any other Republican).
Tried to get us single payer healthcare 25 years ago, and took a truckload of unwarranted personal heat for it.
Once having left Arkansas she never went back ("probably" a positive for her and Arkansas).
Hillary has the most directly applicable professional experience of most any other Presidential candidate, ever. And in all those jobs, she has done a competent job.
Building relationships and bridges. Hillary understands that.
Will try to overturn Citizens United and increase transparency in campaign funding.
Really no worse than Colin Powell and really, really no worse than Jeb!
Corrupt but competent, not slimy and shoddy.
Good DNC speaker lineup.

[Vrede too]

[Vrede too]

I didn't know that Tim Kaine is fluent in Spanish as a result of his 9 months volunteering in Honduras. If she felt like she needed to pick a moderate, Anglo, male, purple state VP, shrewd choice.

So far, understanding that we'll never be unanimous on each item, the list includes:

She's better than Trump (or any other Republican).
Tried to get us single payer healthcare 25 years ago, and took a truckload of unwarranted personal heat for it.
Once having left Arkansas she never went back ("probably" a positive for her and Arkansas).
Hillary has the most directly applicable professional experience of most any other Presidential candidate, ever. And in all those jobs, she has done a competent job.
Building relationships and bridges. Hillary understands that.
Will try to overturn Citizens United and increase transparency in campaign funding.
Really no worse than Colin Powell and really, really no worse than Jeb!
Corrupt but competent, not slimy and shoddy.
Good DNC speaker lineup.
Fluent in Spanish VP.

[rstrong]

Four less bankruptcies than Trump.
Way ahead of Trump on the family and marriage front.

[Vrede too]

Do you want those added as specifics to Item #1? The sub-list could get YUUUGE, including that she doesn't say, "YUUUGE".

[Vrede too]

Otoh:

Tim Kaine, Clinton’s VP pick, is a Democrat Wall Street can like

Oh well, Hillary is already a Democrat Wall Street likes.

I'm not gonna put "Clinton’s VP pick is a Democrat Wall Street can like" or "Hillary is already a Democrat Wall Street likes" on the list on my own, but if one of you want me to I will.