Non-Trump Republicans

[O Really]

Nader's effect is disputed:

... Defenders of Nader, including Dan Perkins, argued that the margin in Florida was small enough that Democrats could blame any number of third-party candidates for the defeat, including Workers World Party candidate Monica Moorehead, who received 1,500 votes....

Democratic party strategist and Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) chair Al From expressed a different view. In the January 24, 2001, issue of the DLC's Blueprint magazine, he wrote, "I think they're wrong on all counts. The assertion that Nader's marginal vote hurt Gore is not borne out by polling data. When exit pollers asked voters how they would have voted in a two-way race, Bush actually won by a point. That was better than he did with Nader in the race."

I know the Nader effect was disputed. I wouldn't have wanted to take the blame for Bush getting into power either.
But in his book, ironically named "Crashing the Party" Nader claims "exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all." So if the difference in the election was 537 votes and the difference in Bush vs. Gore alternate votes was 13%, that's 12,664 votes that would have gone to Gore. His exit polling could be wrong, he could be making it up, but the horse's mouth says he screwed up the nation and possibly the world for decades.

[rstrong]

His exit polling could be wrong, he could be making it up, but the horse's mouth says he screwed up the nation and possibly the world for decades.

There's plenty of people who might take that blame.

There was the Supervisor of Elections for Palm Beach County who years earlier designed the "butterfly ballot" - which led to the double-punching and mis-punching that cost Gore the election. There was whomever decided against state-wide standards for ballot machines.

There was the decision against recounting the ballots in every single precinct, not just the three counties that were initially selected. Gore would have won otherwise.

Self-described "GOP Hitman" Roger Stone blames himself for his role in the Brooks Brothers Riot that shut down the recounts. “When I look at those double-page New York Times spreads of all the individual pictures of people who have been killed [in Iraq], I got to think, 'Maybe there wouldn't have been a war if I hadn't gone to Miami-Dade. Maybe there hadn't have been, in my view, an unjustified war if Bush hadn't become president.' It's very disturbing to me." (Of course that hasn't stopped him from being a campaign advisor for Trump.)

And there was whomever decided that the Republican establishment would support Bush II over McCain in the primaries, giving candidates in local races what was essentially a loyalty oath stipulating that they would support George W. Bush in the forthcoming primaries *exclusively*, and not McCain, and if they didn't agree, the Party would withhold its financing from their election bids.

[Vrede too]

... There was the decision against recounting the ballots in every single precinct, not just the three counties that were initially selected. Gore would have won otherwise....

In fact, it was Gore's unfortunate choice to just make a limited challenge. Any Gore supporter that blames Nader is necessarily excusing their guy's poor decision making.

[O Really]

All true, and if Ponce de Leon hadn't been looking for a fountain of youth that ended up attracting 20 million residents it wouldn't have been an issue. But there is still that matter of the 12,000 votes.

Speaking of the butterfly ballots, people have made fun of that, but they really were confusing.

[Vrede too]

Gore also screwed up the debates, at least in a good chunk of America's eyes whether or not we agree.

Then, there's SCOTUS.

[rstrong]

Speaking of the butterfly ballots, people have made fun of that, but they really were confusing.

Yup. The design led to whomever was second on the ballot to have a great many ballots cast for someone else. (For the second on the list, you had to punch the THIRD hole.) It also led to a great many spoiled ballots. (The second name had TWO holes beside it; both being punched was invalidated as an "overvote".)

During the recount we learned that the 1996 Republican candidate, Bob Dole, had 14,000 ballots tossed out because of double-punching. Why the Republican in that election? Because Dole was the second name on the ballot, just as Al Gore was in 2000. "Luckily" in 1996 it made no difference in the election results. In 2000 it did.

If Jeb Bush had lost the 1998 gubernatorial election, Al Gore would have been elected president. Why? Because candidate of the party of the incumbent governor appears first on the ballot. In 1996, Democrat Lawton Chiles was in the Governor's Mansion, and so Republican Dole got all the ruined ballots. With Jeb Bush as Governor, Al Gore found himself in second place on the ballot, and second in the count.

If Gore were first on the ballot in Palm Beach County, he would have won the federal election. If Florida had state-wide standards for ballot machines, Gore would have won the election. And if there were a state-wide recount, Gore would have won the election.

[Vrede too]

Not to mention Jeb's personal role in the ultimate outcome.

[Seth Milner]

Some folks have got waaaayyyy too much time on their hands.
Agreed - I opened this infantile and idiotic post of yours.
hee hee.. thanks. I love you too!

It's hilarious to see rstrong and Vrede trying to be smarter than the other!
We're collaborating here, have been doing so for (in)this entire thread(forum),
I know. That's why I hang on to this:

and we're doing it with investigative research and citation,
Do you have your "investigative reporter" credentials? Research is a bitch without them!

something you consistently can't manage even the basics of. Butthurt and whiny Seth Milner fails comprehension, again. Hilarious.
Stop it! You're breaking my heart!

[Seth Milner]

Dang, you proved that you're smarter than me.
Well known fact.

Or, the difference is irrelevant and Seth Milner is an idiot.
Or not.

[Vrede too]

Governor hopefuls distancing themselves from Clinton, Trump

... VERMONT

... But Lt. Gov. Phil Scott ... has denounced Trump as "someone who exploits fear for political gain" and "who is willing to overlook the truth."

Republicans not voting for Donald Trump

- Vermont Lt. Gov. and candidate for Gov., Phil Scott
- Charles and David Koch
- Harvard University’s Republican Club
- Princeton College Republicans
- George Washington University (my birth place, represent!) College Republicans
- over three thousand signatories to a Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania (Trump’s alma mater) student letter
- Colin Powell
- Dallas Morning News. Historically, the Morning News has tilted conservative, mirroring Texas' drift to the Republican Party. It has not endorsed a Democrat for president since Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II.
- Jacob Monty, an attorney based in Houston, resigned from the Republican candidate’s National Hispanic Advisory Council
- Alfonso Aguilar, the president of the Latino Partnership for Conservative Principles
- Maybe half of Trump’s Hispanic advisory board
- Massey Villarreal, a businessman in Houston
- Some of Public Faith
- Regina Thomson, Colorado Republican activist
- Free the Delegates
- NOVA Digital Films, a Virginia-based firm that lists a slew of conservative candidates and organizations as clients, including the Republican Party of Virginia, Americans for Prosperity, the anti-abortion Susan B. Anthony List and former gubernatorial candidate Ken Cuccinelli
- Glenn Beck
- Ann Coulter? Probably not.
- Barbara Bush, former first lady
- Jeb Bush, former Florida governor, 2016 presidential candidate
- William Cohen, former secretary of defense
- Jeff Flake, Arizona senator
- Lindsey Graham, South Carolina senator, 2016 presidential candidate
- Larry Hogan, Maryland governor
- John Kasich, Ohio governor, 2016 presidential candidate
- Mark Kirk, Illinois senator
- Mitt Romney, former Massachusetts governor, 2012 Republican presidential nominee
- Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Florida congresswoman
- Ben Sasse, Nebraska senator
- Mike Coffman, Republican congresswoman
- Charlie Dent, Pennsylvania congresswoman
- Vin Weber, former congresswoman, current GOP lobbyist
- Wadi Gaitan, prominent Latino official and chief spokesman for the Republican party in Florida
- Maine Senator Susan Collins (adjacent NH is a swing state)
- Kori Schake, served on President George W. Bush’s National Security Council and was an adviser to Arizona Sen. John McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign
- Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus, almost
- Joe Scarborough
- Evan McMullin, former CIA agent and Republican Congressional staff member, running as an independent
- Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, the most senior member of Florida’s congressional delegation
- Rep. Carlos Curbelo
- Ana Navarro, a GOP strategist and CNN contributor
- Philip Klein, the managing editor of the Washington Examiner
- Cheri Jacobus, GOP consultant and pundit
- Steve Deace, conservative fireband radio host
- Meghan McCain, daughter of 2008 Republican nominee John McCain
- Lachlan Markay, writer for the conservative website Washington Free Beacon
- Ryan Hart, worked on Capitol Hill for several Republican congressmen
- Erick Erickson, high-profile conservative writer and frequent cable news guest
- 50 Republican national security experts including:
--- Michael Hayden, former CIA director (Republican)
--- John Negroponte, first director of national intelligence and later deputy secretary of state
--- Robert B Zoellick, former deputy secretary of state
--- Tom Ridge, former secretary of homeland security
--- Michael Chertoff, former secretary of homeland security
- More than 120 prominent Republicans including three former Cabinet secretaries and six current or former members of Congress:
--- Virginia Rep. Scott Rigell
--- Wisconsin Rep. Reid Ribble
--- Former Sen. Gordon Humphrey of New Hampshire
--- Former Rep. Chris Shays of Connecticut
--- Former Rep. Tom Coleman of Missouri
--- Former Rep. Vin Weber of Minnesota
--- Andrew Weinstein, director of media relations for the Dole/Kemp presidential campaign and deputy press secretary to then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich
--- More than 20 former RNC staffers including:
------ Mindy Finn (former RNC chief digital strategist)
------ Christine Iverson Gunderson (former RNC press secretary)
------ Virginia Hume Onufer (former RNC deputy press secretary)
------ Beth Miller (former RNC field communications division director)
------ Heather Layman (former deputy press secretary)
------ B. Jay Cooper (former RNC communications director under four chairmen)
------ Patrick Ruffini (former RNC ecampaign director)

Republicans voting for Hillary Clinton

- David Irvine, retired brigadier general and former Davis County, Utah, Republican Party chair
- John Warner, five-time Virginia senator, former Secretary of the Navy and Chairman of the Senate Committee on Armed Services
- The Arizona Republic newspaper, the first time it has supported a Democrat since its founding in 1890.
- The Houston Chronicle, conservative-leaning newspaper
- The Cincinnati Enquirer, conservative-leaning newspaper
- Larry Pressler, former governor and senator from South Dakota
- Arne Carlson, former Minnesota governor
- Mike Fernandez, billionaire health-care magnate, major Republican donor from Florida and former Jeb Bush supporter
- George H.W. Bush
- Paul Wolfowitz, former deputy defence secretary, advisor to President George W. Bush
- Ricardo Reyes, former Deputy Assistant USTR for Public and Media Affairs, Media Surrogate for Bush/Cheney Presidential Campaign
- Charles Dunne, former Foreign Policy Adviser, former Director for Iraq, National Security Council
- Robert Manning, former Member of the Secretary of State's Office of Policy Planning
- Jennifer Sarver, former Bush Administration Official, former GOP Senate Staffer, former RNC Professional Volunteer
- Jim Magill, Chief Master Sergeant (ret.), US Air Force
- Mario Mangiameli, Captain US Marine Corps (Ret.) and former Counterterrorism & Law Enforcement Policy Advisor, US Department of Homeland Security
- Charles Badger, former Director of Coalitions for Jeb Bush 2016, former Director of Legislative Affairs (NJ-Department of Community Affairs, Christie Administration), former Hill staff
- David Meyers, former White House Assistant Staff Secretary and former Communications Advisor for the Senate Republican Leadership
- David Nierenberg, former Mitt Romney national finance chair
- Charles Fried, former Solicitor General
- Richard Painter, former Chief White House Ethics Lawyer
- Donna Barbisch, Major General (ret.) and former Director of Chemical and Biological Defense Program Integration
- Ken Adelman, former US Ambassador to the United Nations and former Arms Control Director
- Kurt Bardella, former advisor to Darrell Issa (R-CA) and former spokesman for Breitbart News
- Elizabeth Tamposi, former Assistant Secretary of State and former New Hampshire State Legislator
- Niki Christoff, former member of the policy staff of John McCain 2008
- James Clad, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Asia
- Patrick Cronin, former Assistant Administrator for Policy and Program Coordination, USAID
- James Filippatos, former Assistant Administrator for International Affairs, Federal Aviation Administration
- Jana Chapman Gates, former speechwriter, US Department of the Treasury
- Jean Geran, former member of the Secretary of State’s Office of Policy Planning
- Justin Kintz, former Special Assistant External Affairs, US Department of the Interior
- Frank Lavin, former White House Political Director, former US Ambassador to Singapore, former Under Secretary of Commerce for International Trade
- Phil Levy, former member of the Secretary of State’s Office of Policy Planning
- Peter Mansoor, Colonel, US Army (Ret.)
- Todd Moss, former Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of African Affairs, US Department of State
- Andrew Sagor, former Special Assistant to the US Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues
- John Stubbs, former Senior Advisor USTR
- Colin Tooze, former Member of the Office of Rep. Chris Cox (R-CA)
- Dan Twining, former Member of the Secretary of State’s Office of Policy Planning
- John Veroneau, former Deputy USTR, former Assistant Secretary of Defense
- Davis White, former Member of the White House Office of Public Liaison
- James Glassman, served as the under secretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs in the George W. Bush administration, voted for every Republican nominee for president since 1980
- Richard Armitage, former deputy secretary of state
- Hank Paulson, former treasury secretary
- Brent Scowcroft, former national security adviser
- Richard Hanna, New York congressman
- Meg Whitman, Republican finance official
- Adam Kinzinger, Illinois congressman
- Sally Bradshaw, GOP strategist
- Maria Comella, Chris Christie staffer
- Lezlee Westine, former aide to President George W Bush
- Carlos Gutierrez, the U.S. secretary of commerce under President George W. Bush and one of the highest-ranking Latino office holders ever
- conservative billionaire businessman and Gov. Jeb Bush backer Mike Fernandez
- Cindy Guerra, the former chair of Broward County, Florida’s Republican Executive Committee
- Ben Howe, contributing editor at conservative website Red State
- Mike Treiser, former staffer on Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign
- Mark Salter, former strategist for John McCain
- Joseph Shonkwiler, former Republican Senate staffer
- Some of the more than 120 prominent Republicans cited above
- Some of the 50 Republican national security experts cited above
- Some of Public Faith cited above
- Some of the con Hispanics cited above
- Some of the College Republicans cited above
- Some of the seventy-five former ambassadors voting for Hillary, including 57 appointed by Republican presidents, are Republicans
- Some of the 110 retired military officials voting for Hillary are Republicans

[Seth Milner]

[rstrong]

Aw, the poor little Trumpsucker can't take anyone disagreeing with him!

[Vrede too]

I'll bite based on rstrong's assessment.

Do you really think anyone is taking time to read all that lengthy shit-pot full of names you're posting/have posted?

rstrong and I are reading it. Plus, as we've posted many times about, it's being shared elsewhere.

Then, why get so butthurt over it even if it's for my own amusement? No one is forcing you to click.

Finally, it got you to react. That alone would be victory enough.

You're certainly not proving a thing to anyone except that you're a pathetic attention-seeker.

Could be, but it did get your attention. How pathetic does that make you? If so, at least I'm a productive "pathetic attention-seeker". You're here pathetically seeking attention without having produced anything other than whining.

Get over your self.

Before you get over me? You fail logic, again.

"your self [sic]" - Get an ESL class.

[Seth Milner]

[Seth Milner]

"your self [sic]" - Get an ESL class.

I hit the space bar too soon. You'll live.

[rstrong]

I find it hilarious that anyone would waste their time to post all that useless shit.

And yet here you are having a hissy fit about it. It's obviously important to you, and you don't like where it's going. Your usual racist, homophobic and misogynistic bigotry aligns with Trump's, so no-one is surprised.

Who cares who votes for who? One candidate is just as useless as the other. Why should you even care who wins the election?

Oh hush, Seth. The adults are speaking.

[Vrede too]

I defer to Seth Milner's vastly superior expertise on posting useless shit.

[billy.pilgrim]

Aw, the poor little Trumpsucker can't take anyone disagreeing with him!

Disagree?? Are you freakin' serious, Duckbutter? I stated no comments as to agreeing or disagreeing. I find it hilarious that anyone would waste their time to post all that useless shit. Who cares who votes for who? One candidate is just as useless as the other. Why should you even care who wins the election?

There is a difference, a big difference, true that neither provide many of the choices we want, but my god man, you really don't see a difference in a 70 years old adult child with attention deficit disorder raised as an entitled rich kid bully, with an authoritarian world view and some strange alignment with Russia over traditional allies, whose thin skin leads to all night twitter attacks on individuals, who could have the ability to launch weapons and start wars, who doesn't pay taxes, who believes people like him should avoid service, who believes he alone is better than everyone else, who lies about his charities and who has taken all rational discussion of everything and changed it to personal attacks because his racist base can't understand anything else and you compare him to a politician who has made some mistakes, but has to carry baggage deliberately placed on her over the past 25 years of paid republican false attacks.
Just mention Vince foster, hillarycare, travel gate, whitewater, rose law firm and on and on and the highest possibly level of scrutiny and media attention all the while. Nothing found and the story dies ,but repeat any or all the names and the entire republican party gasps at the scandle.

Yes there is a difference

[JTA]

As much as I don't really care for her, Hillary by far is the most qualified candidate, followed by (mind you not closely at all) the Gary "What is Aleppo" Johnson/Weld ticket. At least Johnson and Weld both have executive branch experience.

Putin is frothing at the mouth at the prospect of a Trump presidency.

[O Really]

HIstorically, there probably are more similarities than significant differences between Presidential candidates. This year, there is a stark and drastic difference. Anybody who doesn't see that really should just stay home. Random voting doesn't help.