2016 Elections

[Vrede too]

Plus, it looks like Trump knows that he will lose and that Putin ain't gonna save him. So, rather than be adult about it, he's chosen a scorched earth strategy doing everything he can to trash Hillary and the GOP before no one's listening to him anymore. How his Trumpettes will respond and what this will do to governance is uncertain, but it can't be good.

[JTA]

Thoughts?

I worry about these people you hang with. Utopians and libertarians sure talk a warm and fuzzy life, but both have a similar inability to deal with consequences.

Better to work within the fucked up system we have to limit government; I don't mean the crap we get from republicans and their insanity at public bailouts because their deregulation went wrong.

User fees would go a long way toward a free market value of goods and services, while allowing a non user to skip taxes on that particular service. It wouldn't work it many areas, epically social services, education, etc, but why not fund every government service associated with air travel and fright through users. Same for highways. There are so many areas where this could be used and it JTA's friend pays a small gas tax to run his vehicle and doesn't have to subsidize walmarts trucks, trains, ships and planes.

I really don't like the idea of making libertopians pay for my plane ticket.

Haha this is a different person, but a lot of modern day "hippies" (the dude that posted the rant on FB) seem to have co-opted many "libertarian" views.

Now, I agree with them on certain things. Government is inherently violent and coercive. Soccer mom down the street wants a new ordinance passed that bans smoking in public places? Well, how do you enforce that? I can refuse to adhere to it and be fined. I refuse to pay the fine, I get arrested and thrown in jail. To throw me in jail you have to do so forcefully with threat of force. You can only force others to follow laws through threat of violence.

I disagree however in that I don't believe a Libertarian utopia would be possible. I think the natural outcome of the world they envision is feudalism, where the strongest and those with control over the most resources naturally find themselves overpowering those with less resources and power.

A good example of this is the situation in Iraq after the US invasion, with the central government gone and the US unable to exert control over the country, Iraq ended up with warlords controlling their own little fiefdoms carved out of the country. This is the natural outcome of the libertarians wet-dream. Feudalism.

There's simply no escaping human nature. There are certainly good people out there with the well-being of the public in mind, but those with impure intentions are probably more likely to resort to terrible acts of violence to achieve power.

[Vrede too]

Thoughts?

Without being as verbose as the others, no one asked for his personal "consent" and no one ever will. He needs to suck it up and deal with it. This is not a creation of government, we've always been an interdependent, communal species.

[JTA]

Thoughts?

Without being as verbose as the others, no one asked for his personal "consent" and no one ever will. He needs to suck it up and deal with it. This is not a creation of government, we've always been an interdependent, communal species.

Devil's advocate: Alright, we can't deny the fact that some form of government will come about, so why not the least intrusive government as possible? Taxes are not a choice. Why can't roads be handled by the free market? No more gas taxes. Why not schools? No more property/income taxes. I should be able to freely associate with whomever I want. I never opted into paying taxes to use various services. If a private entity owned them instead, I could freely consent, pay as I go, and use them as I please. I have no choice in whether or not I'd like to pay taxes.

[Vrede too]

He and the Devil are free to work for those things and I'll join in when it comes to the prison and military industrial complexes, but for better or worse we have collectively decided what we want government doing. Opting out is not possible, but getting the collective to change its mind is.

[billy.pilgrim]

Thoughts?

I worry about these people you hang with. Utopians and libertarians sure talk a warm and fuzzy life, but both have a similar inability to deal with consequences.

Better to work within the fucked up system we have to limit government; I don't mean the crap we get from republicans and their insanity at public bailouts because their deregulation went wrong.

User fees would go a long way toward a free market value of goods and services, while allowing a non user to skip taxes on that particular service. It wouldn't work it many areas, epically social services, education, etc, but why not fund every government service associated with air travel and fright through users. Same for highways. There are so many areas where this could be used and it JTA's friend pays a small gas tax to run his vehicle and doesn't have to subsidize walmarts trucks, trains, ships and planes.

I really don't like the idea of making libertopians pay for my plane ticket.

Haha this is a different person, but a lot of modern day "hippies" (the dude that posted the rant on FB) seem to have co-opted many "libertarian" views.

Now, I agree with them on certain things. Government is inherently violent and coercive. Soccer mom down the street wants a new ordinance passed that bans smoking in public places? Well, how do you enforce that? I can refuse to adhere to it and be fined. I refuse to pay the fine, I get arrested and thrown in jail. To throw me in jail you have to do so forcefully with threat of force. You can only force others to follow laws through threat of violence.

I disagree however in that I don't believe a Libertarian utopia would be possible. I think the natural outcome of the world they envision is feudalism, where the strongest and those with control over the most resources naturally find themselves overpowering those with less resources and power.

A good example of this is the situation in Iraq after the US invasion, with the central government gone and the US unable to exert control over the country, Iraq ended up with warlords controlling their own little fiefdoms carved out of the country. This is the natural outcome of the libertarians wet-dream. Feudalism.

There's simply no escaping human nature. There are certainly good people out there with the well-being of the public in mind, but those with impure intentions are probably more likely to resort to terrible acts of violence to achieve power.

Well said, and to think I was worried about you.

[billy.pilgrim]

He and the Devil are free to work for those things and I'll join in when it comes to the prison and military industrial complexes, but for better or worse we have collectively decided what we want government doing. Opting out is not possible, but getting the collective to change its mind is.

To an extent it is and we should push to that end.

User fees and required insurance as needed. Why should income taxes go to the FFA for optional services many people don't use.

What about the hundreds of millions in rescues. I absolutely believe in rescue and don't mind paying, but why not let all boaters but rescue insurance and let the CG bill for services

Don't get me started on sales tax funding billion dollar rich man stadiums and arenas

[Vrede too]

To clarify, opting out is not possible without consequences, ones I've freely chosen to suffer with scores of acts of civil disobedience. In fact, people opting out is exactly what killed Jim Crow. However, whining that one's opting out should be meekly accepted by all ain't gonna get the author and the Devil anywhere.

[Vrede too]

Plus, it looks like Trump knows that he will lose and that Putin ain't gonna save him. So, rather than be adult about it, he's chosen a scorched earth strategy doing everything he can to trash Hillary and the GOP before no one's listening to him anymore. How his Trumpettes will respond and what this will do to governance is uncertain, but it can't be good.

Trump declares war on establishment Republicans

[JTA]

To clarify, opting out is not possible without consequences, ones I've freely chosen to suffer with scores of acts of civil disobedience. In fact, people opting out is exactly what killed Jim Crow. However, whining that one's opting out should be meekly accepted by all ain't gonna get the author and the Devil anywhere.

People can somewhat opt-out. Nothing is stopping these people from moving to the hills of Montana or the Alaskan wilderness.

They never admit to enjoying the pampered existence they're fully part of, and won't admit they're addicted to all that it entails.

What's stopping them from learning bushcraft and starting a homestead with minimal contact with that they so detest? Nothing but their own complacency. Hypocrites.

They don't need to pay fuel taxes. Ride a bike. They don't have to voluntarily take a job that forces them to pay taxes. Work under the table. In doing these things along with others, they ARE opting into the system, are they not?

[Vrede too]

All those people have always been around, but Trump let them out from under their rocks ...

There may, may, be a silver lining. It's forced us anti-bigots to also take a stand, and victims to come out of the shadows and/or seek help.

#TrumpTapes Cause Major Spike in Calls to Sexual Assault Hotline, Sharing of Survivor Stories

Women Form Human Wall Outside Trump Tower in Protest

An Open Letter to the White Right, On the Occasion of Your Recent, Successful Temper Tantrum

Tick, tock.

[O Really]

I have no sympathy whatsoever for those who complain of "oppression" because they're "forced" to pay for an interstate system among the best in the world, or because they have to help fund an education system that - while not nearly as good as it could be - is able to provide an excellent education for anyone wanting it, or because the "jack-booted thugs" won't let them pour their used oil in the river or keep war weapons in their basement. Boo-hoo. Waaah! Go live in Somalia.

Admittedly, my view is somewhat affect by the couple of years I lived where there really was an oppressive government. That would be Greece under the military junta that ruled from 1967-74. But even there, as truly oppressive as the right-wing government was, it was possible to somewhat opt-out by living away from large cities, keeping your head down and mouth generally shut as regards the rulers. Stay out of the way and live a relatively normal life. Kinda like Iraq under Saddam Hussein. Look at places like that, people living as they do and how dare they use the term "oppressive" to describe the US?

[O Really]

Some conjecture regarding "after the massacre" mostly according to Republicans...
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... isten.html

[Vrede too]

Whoa. We may have to build a monument in appreciation of Trump.

[Boatrocker]

An Open Letter to the White Right, On the Occasion of Your Recent, Successful Temper Tantrum

Tick, tock.

Bookmarked that one. After the big TGiving gatherings I may make that one of my very rare FB shares. It will be a virtual nuclear option, family wise, but I won't be able to remain eternally silent. Those things need to be said over and over to the lingering confederacy. Hope my marriage survives it.

[Vrede too]

Yeah, I've saved, reread and used that one for 6 years now.

[rstrong]

NYT: How One 19-Year-Old Illinois Man Is Distorting National Polling Averages

There is a 19-year-old black man in Illinois who has no idea of the role he is playing in this election.

He is sure he is going to vote for Donald J. Trump.

And he has been held up as proof by conservatives — including outlets like Breitbart News and The New York Post — that Mr. Trump is excelling among black voters. He has even played a modest role in shifting entire polling aggregates, like the Real Clear Politics average, toward Mr. Trump.

How? He’s a panelist on the U.S.C. Dornsife/Los Angeles Times Daybreak poll....
[...]
Alone, he has been enough to put Mr. Trump in double digits of support among black voters.

He's one of around 3,000 panelists. But because of a number of factors his response is weighted 30 to 300 times more than others. And the single most overweighted person in the survey was unrepresentative of his demographic group. The one time he failed to respond to the poll, Hillary Clinton suddenly did much better.

This is just the LA Times Presidential Poll. But it in turn affects the aggregated results that combine a bunch of polls.

[homerfobe]

[JTA]

Hoolllyyy shit.

[Boatrocker]

Hoolllyyy shit.

He knows what the trailer trash who support him want to hear.