The homophobic thread :>

[O Really]

Or more precisely, ... don't win any of the 132 bids for events that were submitted by NC cities.

[Vrede too]

AP Exclusive: 'Bathroom bill' to cost North Carolina $3.76B

[Mr.B]

AP Exclusive: 'Bathroom bill' to cost North Carolina $3.76B
If they didn't have it to begin with, they ain't lost it. It's that they could'a had it. I could've won the lottery too, had I played.

I can't see what's so hard about withdrawing a bill. Both sides want it, but what's the hold-up?
I've said before, people have peed where they wanted to for decades, why all of a sudden has this become an issue?

[O Really]

AP Exclusive: 'Bathroom bill' to cost North Carolina $3.76B
If they didn't have it to begin with, they ain't lost it. It's that they could'a had it. I could've won the lottery too, had I played.

Not a good analogy. The odds of winning the lottery are very low. The odds of winning a lot of that business/events are (would be) quite good. Attempting to land events/business is like any other business development effort. You can help your chances, or hurt them. Construction companies don't usually help their chances for a contract by getting big publicity over how they cheat the inspectors or how many of their buildings leak. Saying "oh well" to revenue you might reasonably expect but don't yet have is pretty much business suicide. Not to mention really really stupid.

[Vrede too]

Anyone sane and honest projects future business opportunities and impediments. Plus, what we did have and then lost:

... Over the past year, North Carolina has suffered financial hits ranging from scuttled plans for a PayPal facility that would have added an estimated $2.66 billion to the state's economy to a canceled Ringo Starr concert that deprived a town's amphitheater of about $33,000 in revenue....

Still, AP's tally ( http://bit.ly/2o9Dzdd ) is likely an underestimation of the law's true costs. The count includes only data obtained from businesses and state or local officials regarding projects that canceled or relocated because of HB2. A business project was counted only if AP determined through public records or interviews that HB2 was why it pulled out.

Some projects that left, such as a Lionsgate television production that backed out of plans in Charlotte, weren't included because of a lack of data on their economic impact.

The AP also tallied the losses of dozens of conventions, sporting events and concerts through figures from local officials. The AP didn't attempt to quantify anecdotal reports that lacked hard numbers, or to forecast the loss of future conventions.

Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan — who leads the largest company based in North Carolina — said he's spoken privately to business leaders who went elsewhere with projects or events because of the controversy, and he fears more decisions like that are being made quietly.

"Companies are moving to other places because they don't face an issue that they face here," he told a World Affairs Council of Charlotte luncheon last month. "What's going on that you don't know about? What convention decided to take you off the list? What location for a distribution facility took you off the list? What corporate headquarters consideration for a foreign company — there's a lot of them out there — just took you off the list because they just didn't want to be bothered with the controversy? That's what eats you up."

... Those include PayPal canceling a 400-job project in Charlotte, CoStar backing out of negotiations to bring 700-plus jobs to the same area, and Deutsche Bank scuttling a plan for 250 jobs in the Raleigh area. Other companies that backed out include Adidas, which is building its first U.S. sports shoe factory employing 160 near Atlanta rather than a High Point site, and Voxpro, which opted to hire hundreds of customer support workers in Athens, Georgia, rather than the Raleigh area.

"We couldn't set up operations in a state that was discriminating against LGBT" people, Dan Kiely, Voxpro founder and CEO, said in an interview.

All told, the state has missed out on more than 2,900 direct jobs that went elsewhere....

An analysis by the state Commerce Department shortly before HB2 was enacted shows state officials expected the PayPal expansion to contribute more than $200 million annually to North Carolina's gross domestic product — an overall measure of the economy. By the end of 2028, the state expected PayPal to have added $2.66 billion to the state economy.

The same analysis of the Deutsche Bank project estimated a total impact of about $543 million by the end of 2027. The economic model has been used for more than a decade — with some updates along the way — when the state offers major discretionary tax breaks to attract jobs.

State officials said they didn't run the same financial analysis for CoStar, Voxpro and Adidas, so losses attributed to them were calculated using payroll numbers and other figures from the companies or state documents.

Meanwhile, canceled conventions, concerts and sporting events ranging from the NBA All-Star Game to a Bruce Springsteen show have deprived the state of more than $196 million. The number was compiled through email exchanges and interviews with local tourism officials....

All told, the state will have missed out on more than $3.76 billion by the end of 2028. The losses are based on projects that already went elsewhere — so the money won't be recouped even if the law is struck down in court or repealed.

By the end of 2017 alone, the lost business will total more than $525 million.

Tourism officials in several cities say the numbers they report represent only a fraction of the damage the law has done. They typically track large conventions but don't have firm numbers for when groups or tourists cancel smaller deals — or rule out North Carolina before booking.

"The biggest impact is how many times our phones are not ringing now," said Shelly Green, CEO of the Durham Convention & Visitors Bureau.

When Green's bureau sought to tally cancellations, it was able to count several large sporting events and conventions that backed out, depriving the city of more than $11 million, she said. But officials found hotels and meeting planners were tight-lipped about other events.

"There are a lot more meetings that have canceled, but we don't have data on them," she said.

Elsewhere, tourism setbacks range from an estimated $100 million lost when the 2017 NBA All-Star Game moved out of Charlotte to $36,000 in spending taken elsewhere when the Lutheran Financial Managers Convention backed out of Fayetteville. Seven hundred part-time workers at Raleigh's PNC Arena lost at least $130,000 in wages because of cancellations by Pearl Jam, Cirque Du Soleil and others.

Other financial signals of disapproval have been more symbolic than clearly harmful.

More than two dozen cities and states, from Honolulu to Vermont, have banned taxpayer-funded visits to North Carolina because of HB2. Most said they couldn't estimate the money not spent on business travel. But in Providence, Rhode Island, officials refused to spend even the remaining $495 to send three city employees to a Charlotte conference after sponsors picked up most of the costs, city spokesman Victor Morente said via email.

Dozens of investment firms have urged North Carolina to repeal HB2, but most of those contacted in recent weeks, such as John Hancock and Morgan Stanley, wouldn't discuss any financial measures they took to penalize the state. Trillium Asset Management, which manages more than $2 billion for wealthy families and foundations, had dozens of clients request that their holdings exclude bonds issued by North Carolina state or municipal governments, Chief Executive Officer Matt Patsky said in an interview....

Charlotte, North Carolina's largest city, has lost projects totaling 2,000 jobs because of HB2, Chamber of Commerce research director Chuck McShane said via email. According to separate documents obtained through public records requests, the majority were in the PayPal and CoStar projects.

CoStar, a real-estate research firm, was entering final negotiations to bring 732 jobs to Charlotte in September when its board backed out because of negative publicity over HB2, according to an email between a chamber executive and a city official. When the company picked Virginia, the reversal cost North Carolina at least $250 million in economic impact over the next six years, according to figures from both states.

"I fear this will be an epidemic outcome for many projects we are still in the running for at this time," Jeffrey Edge of the Charlotte Chamber wrote in the September email exchange first reported by The Charlotte Observer.

Economic losses also hit smaller towns, such as those surrounding the University of North Carolina. When the San Francisco Symphony pulled out of two concerts scheduled for April 2017, the move had a ripple effect totaling about $325,000, according to Patty Griffin, of the Chapel Hill/Orange County Visitors Bureau.

"Memorial Hall will be empty those two nights and see no revenue for tickets or concessions, and no employees will work," she said via email. "The attendees for most of them who have dinner, drinks and desserts either before or after the performance will not come out, which impacts local restaurants."

Green, the Durham tourism official, said, "When you think about it, this whole thing is just such a Dumpster fire, and nobody wants to go near it."

The NC GOP is bad for the economy.

[Vrede too]

How our autistic ancestors played an important role in human evolution

Interesting. That also fits with great achievements in art and invention from bipolar folks in their manic phase. Similarly, it's thought that gay tendencies increase cooperation in our communal species. Arguably, we would be worse off as a species without autism, bipolars and gays. Uniformity is an evolutionary dead end.

[billy.pilgrim]

How our autistic ancestors played an important role in human evolution

Interesting. That also fits with great achievements in art and invention from bipolar folks in their manic phase. Similarly, it's thought that gay tendencies increase cooperation in our communal species. Arguably, we would be worse off as a species without autism, bipolars and gays. Uniformity is an evolutionary dead end.

years ago I read somewhere that a much higher percentage of geniuses were born to parents with very low IQs. could have been a bs article, but I firmly believe that it takes all kinds and like to think that the article was at least a little true

[Vrede too]

years ago I read somewhere that a much higher percentage of geniuses were born to parents with very low IQs. could have been a bs article, but I firmly believe that it takes all kinds and like to think that the article was at least a little true

Maybe they just seem to be geniuses in comparison.

More seriously, the science doesn't seem to be settled yet.
http://www.goodsearch.com/search-web?ut ... 3F&button=

Plus, genetic traits that are not manifested in the parents can achieve prominence in their children, and genius is much more than just IQ.

[Mr.B]

".... it's thought that gay tendencies increase cooperation in our communal species."
"Birds of a feather ... "

"Arguably, we would be worse off as a species without autism, bipolars and gays."
Without 'em, we'd have nothing to complain or worry about.

"Uniformity is an evolutionary dead end."
I couldn't imagine living in a society where everyone's thoughts or actions were identical. I think that's why we have so much hatred in the world; people fear or don't understand others' differences.

[Vrede too]

Tell North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper to stand strong, reject these bad deals, and support only a true and full repeal of HB2.

[k9nanny]

OK, guys, help me out here.
The bill that was passed today- does it remove this!

"It is the public policy of this State to protect and safeguard the right and opportunity ofall persons to seek, obtain and hold employment without discrimination or abridgement onaccount of race, religion, color, national origin, age, biological sex or handicap by employerswhich regularly employ 15 or more employees."

That is in Section 2, which is "amended by adding a new article..."

I've gone back and forth trying to figure out what makes this any different, besides the three year provision.
I hope the NCAA and all others will see through this pathetic attempt.
And, ain't it grand, money, not rights, spurred them to "repeal" HB2.

[Vrede too]

The people and groups that care about rights oppose this new bill.

[k9nanny]

The people and groups that care about rights oppose this new bill.

I know. I'm wondering if the evil language I quoted still stands. I'm so sick of this being all about the bathrooms. Writing discrimination into law, by omitting equal protection for LBGT people is archaic and vile.

I think, I hope, that the boycotts of NC were based on lack of equality, and not just the bathroom mess.

[O Really]

NC, like many if not most states as well as the federal government, didn't include sexual orientation or transgender as part of the protected groups (like race, M/F gender, etc.) The answer to that lack by many cities has been to pass their own ordinances. The thing that made HB2 so reprehensible was that it replaced a "not included" policy with a "mandated discrimination" policy and also prohibited cities from passing their own non-discrimination ordinances (along with their own minimum wage and other employment ordinances). The replacement appears to take away the mandated discrimination but keeps the restrictions on cities to add their own ordinances. People who care about civil rights would have preferred a real non-discrimination law that includes sex orientation and transgender as protected groups, and that repealed the city restriction. That wasn't going to happen. I don't think the bill that passed is perfect by any means, and it leaves the homophobic bigots with something, but that's the way politics goes. Unyielding refusal to negotiate and compromise often results in nothing, such as the so-called "Freedom Caucus" found out. I think Cooper did a good job. If the state gets business back after this, it will be to his credit.

[Mr.B]

"....I hope, that the boycotts of NC were based on lack of equality, and not just the bathroom mess."

Merely a test to see who could push and shove the most and the hardest.
There should never had been a bathroom bill; NC got their rumpus handed to them.

[k9nanny]

Thanks, O'Really. I've read so much today I couldn't decipher what remained.
I respectfully disagree that Cooper did well.

It seems absurd to me that municipalities can't pass ordinances to protect all its citizens. We may not ignore, for example, State animal welfare laws, but we may write stricter ordinances. (That's not to say the State wouldn't step in if the opposition had the ear of the right people.)

However, we may not write anti-discrimination laws that are stricter than State law, and that tells me that discrimination against homosexual and transgender citizens is blessed by the Old North State. I am very disappointed.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinio ... 17667.html

Though legislators value the amenities and revenues that big cities provide, some of them abhor the challenges to traditional values that cities create. That’s evident in HB2. Lawmakers enacted it in response to an urban myth they created without regard to experience elsewhere: that sexual predators lurk within Charlotte, eager to don female attire and invade women’s restrooms.

But society’s views on sexual identity continue to evolve. Legislators who command social change to halt often discover that Dillon’s Rule doesn’t grant them that power.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinio ... rylink=cpy

[O Really]

It seems absurd to me that municipalities can't pass ordinances to protect all its citizens. We may not ignore, for example, State animal welfare laws, but we may write stricter ordinances. (That's not to say the State wouldn't step in if the opposition had the ear of the right people.)

It is absurd, but that's what you get when you're one of the 15 or so states that don't have "home rule" in the state Constitution. The "small gummint" legislature can run all over cities, try to take its water, take away its airport, make it change city council voting districts, whatever.

[k9nanny]

Yep.
The School of Government at UNC-CH hosts a blog site, where I read a mind-numbing piece declaring we are not Home Rule, but not quite Dillon. My take on it- the GA is free to intervene if the mood strikes them, if the right people pitch a fit.

For example, the State has statutes regulating ownership of venomous reptiles, but hasn't told Henderson County it may not ban ownership of venomous reptiles (which HenCo did). The State does prohibit local ordinances that regulate standards of care (excluding cruelty) for farm animals. Somebody undoubtedly got to them.

[Vrede too]

Cities not being able pass ordinances to prevent discrimination until 2020 means that that Cooper caved in to the local control hating, big centralized government, bigoted, irrational fear mongering GOP and that NC has still taken a big step backwards from where it was 13 months ago. It sounds like the human rights groups are not satisfied and that the boycott may continue. We'll see what the companies and sporting organizations do.

[O Really]

Yes, he "caved" in the same sense that one "caves" to gravity after jumping off a hill. He had no legal basis to demand cities be allowed to pass their own ordinances. Further argument until the cows come home (or move to Maryland) would have been to no avail. HB2 was a bad law from the start, and wreaked some misery on the state that can't be undone with an "opps." But the ordinance part in particular had its supporters, who had the law on their worthless sides. The only way to get better results is to vote in different people.