Lost Freedoms

[O Really]

OK, no partisan posturing needed. Election is over. Could somebody list all the "personal freedoms" claimed to be lost during Obama's first term? I understand loss of privacy, resulting from technology as well as PATRIOT, but that doesn't seem to be it. What is Ron Paul (as one of many) really talking about? If it was all just election trash-talk, just say so. No problem with election trash-talk. But if real personal freedoms were lost, I'd like a list.

[O Really]

#1. Increased federal raids of pot dispensaries and grow operations in states where it's legal.

Nope. Doesn't count. As ridiculous as federal marijuana laws are, they are still laws that are and have been on the books. State law doesn't overrule. Not reasonable, but not a loss of personal freedom either.

On that topic, however, it's going to be interesting to see how the feds will respond in CO and WA. In the late 70's I would have bet the farm that grass would be legal within ten years. Of course, I would have lost the farm on that bet. But the CO and WA vote was really gratifying. Whodathunk it wouldn't be CA or at least OR first?

[billy.pilgrim]

OK, no partisan posturing needed. Election is over. Could somebody list all the "personal freedoms" claimed to be lost during Obama's first term? I understand loss of privacy, resulting from technology as well as PATRIOT, but that doesn't seem to be it. What is Ron Paul (as one of many) really talking about? If it was all just election trash-talk, just say so. No problem with election trash-talk. But if real personal freedoms were lost, I'd like a list.

1. (2nd attempt) increased number of border patrol agents and increased number of undocumented aliens returned to their home country

[O Really]

OK, no partisan posturing needed. Election is over. Could somebody list all the "personal freedoms" claimed to be lost during Obama's first term? I understand loss of privacy, resulting from technology as well as PATRIOT, but that doesn't seem to be it. What is Ron Paul (as one of many) really talking about? If it was all just election trash-talk, just say so. No problem with election trash-talk. But if real personal freedoms were lost, I'd like a list.

1. (2nd attempt) increased number of border patrol agents and increased number of undocumented aliens returned to their home country

Nope. Doesn't count. Undocumented aliens don't have rights. I don't like current US immigration policy, and think that the US talks out of both sides of its mouth with regard to needing immigrant labor but pretending to object to illegal immigration. But be that as it may, a person without rights can't lose them. Thanks for playing anyway - it looks so far like the right-wingers don't have much of an answer.

[DooHickey]

There you have it. Two hard-ass liberals still can't get it right.

I'm not commenting on this subject myself; watching O'Really shoot down the clucks is too much fun!

[billy.pilgrim]

how can simple irony, facetiousness and sarcasm be so distant to conservatives?


and why can't any con identify these lost freedoms they whine and cry about

[bannination]

Yeah, so much for the end of life as we know it. I still remember ThisisGene saying the stock market would crash down to nothing.

[neoplacebo]

OK, no partisan posturing needed. Election is over. Could somebody list all the "personal freedoms" claimed to be lost during Obama's first term? I understand loss of privacy, resulting from technology as well as PATRIOT, but that doesn't seem to be it. What is Ron Paul (as one of many) really talking about? If it was all just election trash-talk, just say so. No problem with election trash-talk. But if real personal freedoms were lost, I'd like a list.

I've been wondering what all those lost freedoms were, too, but held off asking about them hoping someone would say what they are. The only thing I myself can think of is the (partially insidious, in my opinion) Patriot Act, which was not started by Obama, even though I think he did perpetuate / extend it. I myself haven't lost any freedoms; hell, I've never felt more free. I can do virtually anything I want at my own house and yard.....last weekend I insituted my own scorched earth policy in part of the back yard where I massacred several thousand leaves, I have several tall tress which I could take into with chainsaws if I so desire. Since I haven't flown since 97, the TSA has not taken away any of my freedoms, and as long as I continue to not fly, they will not. I like being free; last weekend while overseeing the flames and smoke, I couldn't help but notice how the smell of the burning leaves and pine tree branches and the thick white smoke smelled like......freedom. Thanks.

[O Really]

There you have it. Two hard-ass liberals still can't get it right.

I'm not commenting on this subject myself; watching O'Really shoot down the clucks is too much fun!

I would think you would jump at the opportunity to give us a clear and evidenced list of lost personal freedoms during Obama's first term and tell us to stuff it up our liberal asses.

[O Really]

#1. Increased federal raids of pot dispensaries and grow operations in states where it's legal.

Nope. Doesn't count. As ridiculous as federal marijuana laws are, they are still laws that are and have been on the books. State law doesn't overrule. Not reasonable, but not a loss of personal freedom either...

Why not? An unenforced law leaves you free, enhanced enforcement makes you less free.

Yes, on an individual day to day basis. You are "free" to pee outside in the woods, but not downtown, even though the "public decency" laws would theoretically apply everywhere. But look, the right-wingers ranted for months (years) about how oppressed they were, how the heavy jack-boot of Obama's despotic reign was ruining their life. Seems they had to be thinking of something more serious on a national level than lax enforcement.

[rstrong]

Why not? An unenforced law leaves you free, enhanced enforcement makes you less free.

I'm not sure that I agree with that.

A sure sign of a despotic government is that laws are ignored except for people that the government doesn't like. A sign of freedom is that laws are enforced equally for everyone, including those with power.

[O Really]

I see your point, but I was thinking of freedoms contracted or expanded in actual practice, not questions of despotism, equality or justice. One could also point to the heavier application of drug laws on nonwhites. However, it's not like freedom is being expanded if the solution is too crack down on whites harder, though equality would be.

Understood, but my original premise was the constant outcry from the right-wingers about serious loss of personal freedoms - and they did frequently use "oppressive" and "despot" "dictator," and similar words describing a major crumbling in US Constitutional protection. However, I'm starting to think that it was all just drama-queen malarky to try to generate more anti-Obama sentiment among those who read nothing and listen only to Fox. As I recall, many couldn't tell the difference in "inconvenience" and "loss of freedom" regarding stuff like seat-belt laws.

[O Really]

Agree with you 100% there, that's why I posted:

Other nominations:

...

Of course, these are all things cons support. It is telling that they are completely unable to come up with ones that they dislike. Won't stop them from whining, though.

Another thing - If the question had been asked during the Shrub years there's no way cons would be suggesting answers like billy.pilgrim and I have. That's how our forum cons are - party before principle.

There's that. But depending on how one defines "freedoms" there's a bigger argument to be made that PATRIOT and other "security" related restrictions trimmed more freedoms during Bush from anybody's standpoint, even if one supports those laws.

But to go back to the dead-horse beating, they kept saying "under Obama..." all these freedoms are lost. "Under Obama...oppression...take our guns..." yada. If there are losses of personal freedom, I, as a long-time card carrying ACLU member, would like to know.

[O Really]

I would have thought a forum in Oklahoma could up up with some, but no... http://www.okctalk.com/politics/29219-w ... obama.html

This article is entitled "Ten Ways Americans Have Lost Their Freedom" and I thought it would be promising, but I don't think this is what the right-wingers are referring to... http://www.salon.com/2012/08/31/ten_way ... r_freedom/

And of course I ran across the usual "Obama took away our freedom to have a job" and drivel like that, but I'm still looking. Where's RJ when you need him? I'm sure somebody would have emailed him a concise and detailed list precisely describing the freedoms we have all lost under Obama.,

[Stinger]

Boy, for such a popular con meme, there is a dearth of con replies on this thread. I would have thought they'd be falling all over themselves to tell us about all the freedoms and rights and whatever that Obama has taken away.

I guess they're just FOS as usual.

[Leo Lyons]

Boy, for such a popular con meme, there is a dearth of con replies on this thread. I would have thought they'd be falling all over themselves to tell us about all the freedoms and rights and whatever that Obama has taken away.

I guess they're just FOS as usual.

No. We're just sitting back watching those of you who are FOS attempt to bait us into something you hope we will say to make you all feel better about your illustrious leader and his miserable followers. Fish ain't bitin' today.

[Leo Lyons]

Translation: Leo Lyons can't come up with even one that makes sense. DooHickey couldn't, either.

Good try. Fish ain't bitin' today.

[billy.pilgrim]

there was a lot that happened during the lil bush admin that the right should have stood against - yet they either supported it all or stayed quiet.

now comes all this screaming and yelling and bs about socialism and birth certificates and obama the dictator and on and on, but when asked for specific explanations of the evils obama has created, even the donut eater keeps his mouth shut

[neoplacebo]

What amazes me is that of all those freedoms taken away over the past four years, there's not been any outcry at all that I've noticed about how, now, there will surely be four more years of presumably even more egregious freedom denial since any restrictions on Obama taking freedoms away have certainly vanished now that he's been re elected. It's just crickets.....I figure Obama has also taken their voices along with their freedoms. Hard to tell....

[rstrong]

Translation: Leo Lyons can't come up with even one that makes sense. DooHickey couldn't, either.

Correct. His cop-out is getting a tad stale.