The Religion Thread

[O Really]

I don't know that CAT qualifies as being a "good person" or showing "kindness" as least insofar as his behaviour here goes. He implies that he is better/more favored than others here because of his religious beliefs, that include being able to ask personal favors of the entity that created the universe(s), and then gets his primary enjoyment from his encounters here by taunting and intentionally attempting to annoy. Nothing wrong with that if that's what he enjoys, but I wouldn't count it as "kindness."

[Leo Lyons]

Patience, that's a good name. Tell me, when did you come to your conclusion that GOD doesn't exist and what line of events lead to your conclusion.

Did you know that Asian women have pubic hair that is not coarse and curly?
The fact that initially the Church was pretty much inseparable from the king, or the ruling class, and vehemently against any progress in science or art or literature or anything else that went against their dogma is something I learned by reading the history of religion.

What you have described is your dislike for "religion". CAT'S question was "when did you come to your conclusion that GOD doesn't exist?"
I believe in a Creator, I despise "religion" much on the same grounds as you do. Each "religion" denomination, sect, or whatever they want to call their assemblage, centers pretty much around the Creator God, but mankind has twisted God's existence to suit their own desires or individual beliefs that they wish to heap onto others. That was the role of the early churches; to control and dominate. It wasn't God's doings.

Give 50 people a verse or paragraph of Scripture and ask them to explain it, and you'll get 50 differing opinions; so because man's minds work independently of others, I find a degree of difficulty in absorbing events recorded in the Old Testament. I can't believe a loving God who created man would condone rape, murder, slavery, pedophilia, etc. This has got to be imaginations in the minds of the writers. I find more interest in OT books that do not have historical "facts". I do place more credibility in New Testament writings and events.

I have no use for organized "religions" because of the great differences in doctrines and beliefs; therefore I don't go to church on a regular basis. I do enjoy somewhat the smaller old-fashioned "country churches", and I occasionally visit predominately Black churches. (another "religion" thingy; there are Black churches and White churches, unless you think of "Mega-Churches" where the emphasis is on numbers of members.) You've not been to a church meeting until you sit through a service in a Black church!

Bottom line, I believe there is a God, a Supreme Creator. I do not believe the OT account as to how He came into being or how sin and it's originator Satan came to be.

[Leo Lyons]

How do you know who the wrong people are? Because someone else tells you who they are or because you think you're the right people?

Simple.
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
"For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
For every tree is known by his own fruit.

[Leo Lyons]

I don't know that CAT qualifies as being a "good person" or showing "kindness" as least insofar as his behaviour here goes. He implies that he is better/more favored than others here because of his religious beliefs, that include being able to ask personal favors of the entity that created the universe(s), and then gets his primary enjoyment from his encounters here by taunting and intentionally attempting to annoy. Nothing wrong with that if that's what he enjoys, but I wouldn't count it as "kindness."

"He implies that he is better/more favored..." I've not seen that trait, but then I've not read every one of his posts.
He does seem to be straighter than what I remember of Mr. B, but Mr. B had a shorter fuse when it came to dealing with our resident sociopath who knew exactly which screws to tighten. He's applying the same screws to CAT, but so far it appears he/she's weathering the storm. Time will tell.

[neoplacebo]

Patience, that's a good name. Tell me, when did you come to your conclusion that GOD doesn't exist and what line of events lead to your conclusion.

Did you know that Asian women have pubic hair that is not coarse and curly?
The fact that initially the Church was pretty much inseparable from the king, or the ruling class, and vehemently against any progress in science or art or literature or anything else that went against their dogma is something I learned by reading the history of religion.

What you have described is your dislike for "religion". CAT'S question was "when did you come to your conclusion that GOD doesn't exist?"
I believe in a Creator, I despise "religion" much on the same grounds as you do. Each "religion" denomination, sect, or whatever they want to call their assemblage, centers pretty much around the Creator God, but mankind has twisted God's existence to suit their own desires or individual beliefs that they wish to heap onto others. That was the role of the early churches; to control and dominate. It wasn't God's doings.

Give 50 people a verse or paragraph of Scripture and ask them to explain it, and you'll get 50 differing opinions; so because man's minds work independently of others, I find a degree of difficulty in absorbing events recorded in the Old Testament. I can't believe a loving God who created man would condone rape, murder, slavery, pedophilia, etc. This has got to be imaginations in the minds of the writers. I find more interest in OT books that do not have historical "facts". I do place more credibility in New Testament writings and events.

I have no use for organized "religions" because of the great differences in doctrines and beliefs; therefore I don't go to church on a regular basis. I do enjoy somewhat the smaller old-fashioned "country churches", and I occasionally visit predominately Black churches. (another "religion" thingy; there are Black churches and White churches, unless you think of "Mega-Churches" where the emphasis is on numbers of members.) You've not been to a church meeting until you sit through a service in a Black church!

Bottom line, I believe there is a God, a Supreme Creator. I do not believe the OT account as to how He came into being or how sin and it's originator Satan came to be.

No, what I have described is my non belief in religious doctrine of any stripe, which in itself includes the non belief in "god" which is the nut of any religion. At the end of my post I indicated that I believe man created god. You are confused about "dislike" and "disbelief"....I do not dislike religion; I just dismiss it as an impediment to reason; I did not just wake up one day and say "fuck this" and I specifically said that I did not disparage those who do believe it; I give them the right to believe as they wish to and ask no favor of them nor grant them favor. You yourself just above state that you "despise" religion; I never indicated that I do so as well, only that I dismiss it. And you can ask 50 people for a description of the killer and get fifty different answers. As for black churches, I commend your cognizance of them as more meaningful than the dismal liturgical rhetoric prevalent in white churches; black churches celebrate, white churches try to console themselves from guilt.

[neoplacebo]

How do you know who the wrong people are? Because someone else tells you who they are or because you think you're the right people?

Simple.
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
"For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
For every tree is known by his own fruit.

A parable doesn't answer the question; how do you know who the right and wrong people are? People are not trees and the offspring of any person is no indication of what sort of person the parent was; you might as well have posted about the fucking basketball coach.

[1 CAT FAN]

Patience, that's a good name. Tell me, when did you come to your conclusion that GOD doesn't exist and what line of events lead to your conclusion.

Did you know that Asian women have pubic hair that is not coarse and curly?

The fact that initially the Church was pretty much inseparable from the king, or the ruling class, and vehemently against any progress in science or art or literature or anything else that went against their dogma is something I learned by reading the history of religion. As I pondered this, and recognized that Christianity is not the only religion (there are more people on this planet that believe in a religion other than Christianity than those that adhere to Christianity) it just made me wonder; well, who is right? As I got further into it and realized that religion has been the biggest obstacle to the progress of mankind, I just couldn't understand why this would be. In ancient times, priests were the only ones who could read or write and this gave them power; power that they did not want to give up or share. I think it was only about twenty years ago that the Catholic church pardoned or absolved Galileo for his scientific observations; at the time, they were considered blasphemy. When the Protestant Reformation and the split from the Catholic church occurred, nothing really changed; it was just more of the same, just without an earthly representative of god (a pope). same as it ever was, if you will. As I got older and became more aware of biological and astronomical concepts, I just could not accept that the concept of life after death (the concept of heaven and hell) was just not tenable. And the Christian religion is one in which you either accept all of it or none of it......I reject the concepts of original sin (how could anyone who witnesses the birth of their child believe such a thing?) life after death, the renunciation of life itself in the promise of something better after death, etc. I just could not accept it, and I am not the only one. I consider the basic tenets of Christianity (like the ten commandments) to be honorable and I honor them but reject the orthodoxy that goes along with it. The fact is not disputed that organized religion has been the cause of more human misery than anything else that has ever happened throughout history; I renounce it absolutely and consider it basically a crutch for believers to make themselves feel better for whatever they wish to regret or forget. I don't need that. And I stand firm in my belief that man created god; not the other way around. I am not militant about it and do not care at all that others are devout or semi devout or pseudo devout. They all know this in their own heart. I ask no favor and give none.

Just today I was reading a book about American history and a passage that was a quote from Thomas Jefferson stuck with me; he said that he did not care if his neighbor believed in one god or twenty gods; that it did not pick his pocket or break his leg. Tolerance, brother.

Former atheist Lee strolbel quote: For me, having lived much of my life as an atheist, the last thing that I want is a naive faith built on a paper thin foundation of wishful thinking or make believe. I need a faith that is consistent with reason , not contradictory to it; I want beliefs that are grounded in reality, not detached from it. I need to find out once and for all whether the Christian faith can stand up to scrutiny. It was time for me to talk face to face with Charles Templeton.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover

I launched an investigation to try to determine whether or not Christianity, or any other world religion, made sense and had any credibility. I thought I could resolve it in a weekend, but it was like a punching bag that you hit and it would bounce back. I found that I was finding answers to my questions. I was finding footprints of Jesus in history and evidence that I found compelling and surprising. I did that for almost two years of my life to finally come to the point where I sat down and said, “A good jury reaches a verdict. I’ve got to reach a verdict.” You can get a PhD to sell you anything, and as a journalist I knew that. I could find anybody to tell me anything, if I wanted to find something that I wanted to find. But I pursued the evidence that made sense to me, and, of course, a lot of my pursuit isn’t in the book. You could see from the footnotes and the questions I asked that I’ve read all the liberal literature, I’ve read the atheist literature—and I stood in the shoes of the skeptic as I asked the tough questions—I just didn’t find them convincing. …

Mostly it was a cumulative case. It was not just the historical evidence. The evidence of cosmology and physics and biochemistry and genetics and human consciousness, I think, pointed in the direction of a creator. And then the evidence of history pointed toward Jesus having lived, having made these extraordinary claims and then backing that up by returning from the dead.

It was really the resurrection that clenched it for me. Because, like [the apostle] Paul, I realized that if this can be falsified then the whole faith falls apart. So it was the cumulative case for the resurrection that I think was the lynchpin for me.

https://relevantmagazine.com/culture/fi ... nd-failed/

I invite you to read his book: The Case for Christ

https://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Jour ... 0310339308

Your granddaughter truly has a beautiful name, Patience.

[Vrede too]

"For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit"

I'm surprised and disappointed to see a LEO claim that all bad children had bad parents.

"neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

We should leave Barron Trump out of this.

[neoplacebo]

Patience, that's a good name. Tell me, when did you come to your conclusion that GOD doesn't exist and what line of events lead to your conclusion.

Did you know that Asian women have pubic hair that is not coarse and curly?

The fact that initially the Church was pretty much inseparable from the king, or the ruling class, and vehemently against any progress in science or art or literature or anything else that went against their dogma is something I learned by reading the history of religion. As I pondered this, and recognized that Christianity is not the only religion (there are more people on this planet that believe in a religion other than Christianity than those that adhere to Christianity) it just made me wonder; well, who is right? As I got further into it and realized that religion has been the biggest obstacle to the progress of mankind, I just couldn't understand why this would be. In ancient times, priests were the only ones who could read or write and this gave them power; power that they did not want to give up or share. I think it was only about twenty years ago that the Catholic church pardoned or absolved Galileo for his scientific observations; at the time, they were considered blasphemy. When the Protestant Reformation and the split from the Catholic church occurred, nothing really changed; it was just more of the same, just without an earthly representative of god (a pope). same as it ever was, if you will. As I got older and became more aware of biological and astronomical concepts, I just could not accept that the concept of life after death (the concept of heaven and hell) was just not tenable. And the Christian religion is one in which you either accept all of it or none of it......I reject the concepts of original sin (how could anyone who witnesses the birth of their child believe such a thing?) life after death, the renunciation of life itself in the promise of something better after death, etc. I just could not accept it, and I am not the only one. I consider the basic tenets of Christianity (like the ten commandments) to be honorable and I honor them but reject the orthodoxy that goes along with it. The fact is not disputed that organized religion has been the cause of more human misery than anything else that has ever happened throughout history; I renounce it absolutely and consider it basically a crutch for believers to make themselves feel better for whatever they wish to regret or forget. I don't need that. And I stand firm in my belief that man created god; not the other way around. I am not militant about it and do not care at all that others are devout or semi devout or pseudo devout. They all know this in their own heart. I ask no favor and give none.

Just today I was reading a book about American history and a passage that was a quote from Thomas Jefferson stuck with me; he said that he did not care if his neighbor believed in one god or twenty gods; that it did not pick his pocket or break his leg. Tolerance, brother.

Former atheist Lee strolbel quote: For me, having lived much of my life as an atheist, the last thing that I want is a naive faith built on a paper thin foundation of wishful thinking or make believe. I need a faith that is consistent with reason , not contradictory to it; I want beliefs that are grounded in reality, not detached from it. I need to find out once and for all whether the Christian faith can stand up to scrutiny. It was time for me to talk face to face with Charles Templeton.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover

I launched an investigation to try to determine whether or not Christianity, or any other world religion, made sense and had any credibility. I thought I could resolve it in a weekend, but it was like a punching bag that you hit and it would bounce back. I found that I was finding answers to my questions. I was finding footprints of Jesus in history and evidence that I found compelling and surprising. I did that for almost two years of my life to finally come to the point where I sat down and said, “A good jury reaches a verdict. I’ve got to reach a verdict.”

https://relevantmagazine.com/culture/fi ... nd-failed/

I invite you to read his book: The Case for Christ

https://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Jour ... 0310339308

Your granddaughter truly has a beautiful name, Patience.

Thank you for the compliment with regard to my granddaughter. Also for the reading suggestion; my reading about religion is at its end, though. You mention the former atheist; I will posit that there are more priests that have renounced their faith than atheists who have become believers. I have no particular knowledge of this but will place a bet on it. Leo Lyons suggests I am a bad person and to have not fallen far from the tree as it were. My sister, six years younger than me, is a religious fanatic; she even believes in the Rapture concept. So I suppose she and I balance the scales. She's also a trump supporter, which reinforces my view of the hypocrisy of humans as it relates to their supposed faith. Same as it ever was.........

[1 CAT FAN]

Be the bigger person, go to church with your sister tomorrow, if only for love of family.Take Patience along with you too. Afterward. have a good southern dinner together. Bet it will warm her heart to have you celebrate Easter with her.

[O Really]

"And then the evidence of history pointed toward Jesus having lived, having made these extraordinary claims and then backing that up by returning from the dead.

It was really the resurrection that clenched it for me. Because, like [the apostle] Paul, I realized that if this can be falsified then the whole faith falls apart. So it was the cumulative case for the resurrection that I think was the lynchpin for me."

What did he offer in the book as evidence of resurrection? Given a two-year investigation, I'm guessing he must have found independent physical/historical evidence to corroborate the rather brief recounting in the Bible?

[Vrede too]

I believe in zombies, why not Zombie Jesus? He's affectionately known as "The Walking Jed".

[O Really]

Be the bigger person, go to church with your sister tomorrow, if only for love of family.Take Patience along with you too. Afterward. have a good southern dinner together. Bet it will warm her heart to have you celebrate Easter with her.

Why is that being "the bigger person?" Why wouldn't the sister be equally big to go fishing with neo? Personally, I think it would be a better Easter for everyone if they don't tempt the fates of discord and just enjoy the day however they like.

[neoplacebo]

Be the bigger person, go to church with your sister tomorrow, if only for love of family.Take Patience along with you too. Afterward. have a good southern dinner together. Bet it will warm her heart to have you celebrate Easter with her.

I have in the past gone to church with her at her request. At present, I am in Kingsport TN, she is near Nashville, and the granddaughter is in Spartanburg SC so it is not feasible to do as you suggest. She knows my stance regarding religion and of course does not approve, but just as I consider her to be a hypocrite relative to her religious / political views, at the same time I do not wish to be a hypocrite by attending church and pretending to be someone I am not.

[Vrede too]

Be the bigger person. If you must indoctrinate innocent Patience, choose any religion that doesn't worship torture, cruelty and horrendous death.

[1 CAT FAN]

Be the bigger person, go to church with your sister tomorrow, if only for love of family.Take Patience along with you too. Afterward. have a good southern dinner together. Bet it will warm her heart to have you celebrate Easter with her.

Why is that being "the bigger person?" Why wouldn't the sister be equally big to go fishing with neo? Personally, I think it would be a better Easter for everyone if they don't tempt the fates of discord and just enjoy the day however they like.

Love of family.

[1 CAT FAN]

"And then the evidence of history pointed toward Jesus having lived, having made these extraordinary claims and then backing that up by returning from the dead.

It was really the resurrection that clenched it for me. Because, like [the apostle] Paul, I realized that if this can be falsified then the whole faith falls apart. So it was the cumulative case for the resurrection that I think was the lynchpin for me."

What did he offer in the book as evidence of resurrection? Given a two-year investigation, I'm guessing he must have found independent physical/historical evidence to corroborate the rather brief recounting in the Bible?

My apologies, I can't post the entire book. Even if I did, would you just skim over it, like Vrede stated he does.

[neoplacebo]

I would never consider indoctrinating my granddaughter in any subject and will leave that to her parents without interference. If I were near the southern border, though, I would not hesitate fo attend church with the migrant children and their families just as a show of support to them. To me, that's religion.

[O Really]

What did he offer in the book as evidence of resurrection? Given a two-year investigation, I'm guessing he must have found independent physical/historical evidence to corroborate the rather brief recounting in the Bible?

My apologies, I can't post the entire book. Even if I did, would you just skim over it, like Vrede stated he does.
[/quote]

No need to post the entire book. Just summarize the evidence he found. I'd be quite interested in reading that part.

[O Really]

Be the bigger person, go to church with your sister tomorrow, if only for love of family.Take Patience along with you too. Afterward. have a good southern dinner together. Bet it will warm her heart to have you celebrate Easter with her.

Why is that being "the bigger person?" Why wouldn't the sister be equally big to go fishing with neo? Personally, I think it would be a better Easter for everyone if they don't tempt the fates of discord and just enjoy the day however they like.

Love of family.

Same question still. Families can't love each other while fishing?