The Religion Thread

[1 CAT FAN]

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."

Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

You left out the come follow him part. There is only one perfect being and that is Jesus. What is the value of a man if he loses his soul to evil. There's nothing wrong with having wealth but it shouldn't interfere with God's teachings.

Jesus was saying humble yourself, serve others as God leads you and follow him. Submit to God's leading and Jesus teachings then you will have treasures in heaven.

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Again, Jesus is saying be humble in his teachings, we ALL are his children.

"But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. "You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I, say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you so that you may be sons of your Father, who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you only love those who love you, what reward do you have.

God loves all of mankind, and he loves you despite the ridicule.

Doesn't sound a lot like the Christians who shun those who they see as "unbelievers."

While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”
When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour, when darkness reigns.”

When I first saw the ridicule here the human part of me lash out like anyone else, doesn't make me a bad Christian, as I said, only Jesus is perfect. He only ask that we follow in his footsteps, when we stumble along the way He'll pick us back up.

God will make a difference in all of your lives, if you would only open up your hearts and allow him the opportunity. I will not "shun" any of you, even Vrede, God Bless you ALL!

[billy.pilgrim]

Wow, attack of the Cherry Picken Strawmen opened on a forum near you. You rock, Cat.

[billy.pilgrim]

I don't see much difference is this Jesus character, real or not, than in so many millions and millions of people over tens or hundreds of thousands of years who have sought to make things better without causing harm somewhere else. He or his character had good strong progressive values for his time (Vrede, everyone always has to be considered in their time and location). He railed against the bankers and he broke old laws designed to control people. His story did get a lot of press over the years but look how it has been used for so much harm.

Damn, that brings up a new version of the, What would you do if you could time travel to the infant Hitler's bedside?, question.

If he's, like, really for real, he's gonna be more than a little pissed at the attacks against his teachings by people preaching that "belief" and "following" lead to material wealth, in addition to the general hate and intolerance worn as a badge of honor by most of his followers in the US.

Most christians I've known are probably similar to most in this country. They're mostly good people. They don't cheat, they don't steal or cause damage to the property of others. They would help almost anyone one to one, regardless of the color of their skin or their religion, but the very large majority of them vote for wars, for segregation and for laws designed to chase, catch or harass those deemed "others".

It's what conservativism means.
Time to face it, Jesus was a liberal.

[neoplacebo]

I don't see much difference is this Jesus character, real or not, than in so many millions and millions of people over tens or hundreds of thousands of years who have sought to make things better without causing harm somewhere else. He or his character had good strong progressive values for his time (Vrede, everyone always has to be considered in their time and location). He railed against the bankers and he broke old laws designed to control people. His story did get a lot of press over the years but look how it has been used for so much harm.

Damn, that brings up a new version of the, What would you do if you could time travel to the infant Hitler's bedside?, question.

If he's, like, really for real, he's gonna be more than a little pissed at the attacks against his teachings by people preaching that "belief" and "following" lead to material wealth, in addition to the general hate and intolerance worn as a badge of honor by most of his followers in the US.

Most christians I've known are probably similar to most in this country. They're mostly good people. They don't cheat, they don't steal or cause damage to the property of others. They would help almost anyone one to one, regardless of the color of their skin or their religion, but the very large majority of them vote for wars, for segregation and for laws designed to chase, catch or harass those deemed "others".

It's what conservativism means.
Time to face it, Jesus was a liberal.

Sure, most Christians are honorable folks in a one on one situation; where they get sidetracked is when they get misled by extreme right wing media and advertising; the conservative movement co opted the religious faction decades ago. They initially equated it with godless Communism and morphed it into hatred for anything that doesn't fit their model of how things ought to be; some fictional America that never existed. It's tragic.

[billy.pilgrim]

I don't see much difference is this Jesus character, real or not, than in so many millions and millions of people over tens or hundreds of thousands of years who have sought to make things better without causing harm somewhere else. He or his character had good strong progressive values for his time (Vrede, everyone always has to be considered in their time and location). He railed against the bankers and he broke old laws designed to control people. His story did get a lot of press over the years but look how it has been used for so much harm.

Damn, that brings up a new version of the, What would you do if you could time travel to the infant Hitler's bedside?, question.

If he's, like, really for real, he's gonna be more than a little pissed at the attacks against his teachings by people preaching that "belief" and "following" lead to material wealth, in addition to the general hate and intolerance worn as a badge of honor by most of his followers in the US.

Most christians I've known are probably similar to most in this country. They're mostly good people. They don't cheat, they don't steal or cause damage to the property of others. They would help almost anyone one to one, regardless of the color of their skin or their religion, but the very large majority of them vote for wars, for segregation and for laws designed to chase, catch or harass those deemed "others".

It's what conservativism means.
Time to face it, Jesus was a liberal.

Sure, most Christians are honorable folks in a one on one situation; where they get sidetracked is when they get misled by extreme right wing media and advertising; the conservative movement co opted the religious faction decades ago. They initially equated it with godless Communism and morphed it into hatred for anything that doesn't fit their model of how things ought to be; some fictional America that never existed. It's tragic.

thus the Give Me My Country Back bumper stickers during the Obama regime.

[Vrede too]

Page 229;

I just finished reading Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol....

However, one passage stood out to me as relevant to many of the discussions we've had here, especially the bold sentence:

.... They celebrated their intolerance as proof of their convictions. Now, after all these years, mankind has finally managed to utterly erode everything that had once been so beautiful about Jesus.
— p. 327

Franklin Graham attacks Pete Buttigieg for being gay, says he should repent

... "Franklin Graham is a sad, out of touch extremist who has spent the last several years selling his soul for parts in order to excuse Donald Trump's worst behavior," Chris Sgro, Senior Director of Communications for the Human Rights Campaign, told ABC News.

Ross Murray, Senior Director at the GLAAD Media Institute and Deacon in the Evangelical Lutheran Church, says Graham needs to “stop the attacks on LGBTQ Christians and allies like Buttigieg, and focus on the Gospel's call to protect those most marginalized.”

“Franklin Graham's relentless attacks on Christians who are a part of the LGBTQ community, while excusing the very un-Christian actions of President Donald Trump, demonstrates that he has been seduced by worldly power and fallen prey to sin,” Murray said in a statement to ABC News.

Meanwhile, Andy Cohen weighed in saying,” God loves everyone. He is gonna have stern words for you though.”

[O Really]

[discussed by quotes that were attributed to Jesus]

I don't know what your point is, CAT - obviously you didn't get mine, either. Here it is, shortened:
1. I picked, somewhat at random, two quotes that have been attributed directly to Jesus, and that I thought were good messages to use as life guidance.
2. I've pointed out that a lot of Christians are not actually followers of Jesus, but have instead followed humans who have made up stuff about what they think Jesus might have said/meant/done. Whether these people call themselves Popes, Bishops, Ministers, Preachers, or TV Evangelists, they're still making stuff up.
3. I've opined that Christians would be better off to follow what Jesus seems to have actually said, instead of following the false prophets.
4. I've opined further that most of the beliefs, practices, rituals, and culture of organized religion is based on what the humans made up, not on what Jesus said.

[GoCubsGo]

All that quoting what Jesus was saying, betcha they had a smartphone to record it on to make sure it was quoted correctly and not misinterpreted.

[1 CAT FAN]

"I think people are shocked when they find out that I am Christian, that I am a religious person," Trump writes in "Great Again," a book published during the presidential campaign. "They see me with all the surroundings of wealth, so they sometimes don't associate that with being religious. That's not accurate.https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/21/politics ... index.html

They've all become experts in evil. Corrupt leaders demand bribes. The powerful rich make sure they get what they want.
The best and brightest are thistles. The top of the line is crabgrass. But no longer: It's exam time. Look at them slinking away in disgrace!
Don't trust your neighbor, don't confide in your friend. Watch your words, even with your spouse.
Neighborhoods and families are falling to pieces. The closer they are - sons, daughters, in-laws - The worse they can be. Your own family is the enemy.
But me, I'm not giving up. I'm sticking around to see what God will do. I'm waiting for God to make things right. I'm counting on God to listen to me. Spreading Your Wings
Don't, enemy, crow over me. I'm down, but I'm not out. I'm sitting in the dark right now, but God is my light.
I can take God's punishing rage. I deserve it - I sinned. But it's not forever. He's on my side and is going to get me out of this. He'll turn on the lights and show me his ways. I'll see the whole picture and how right he is.
And my enemy will see it, too, and be discredited - yes, disgraced! This enemy who kept taunting, "So where is this God of yours?" I'm going to see it with these, my own eyes - my enemy disgraced, trash in the gutter.
Oh, that will be a day! A day for rebuilding your city, a day for stretching your arms, spreading your wings!
All your dispersed and scattered people will come back, old friends and family from faraway places, From Assyria in the east to Egypt in the west, from across the seas and out of the mountains.
But there'll be a reversal for everyone else - massive depopulation - because of the way they lived, the things they did.

"My marriage to Chasten has made me a better man. And yes, Mr. Vice President, it has moved me closer to God," Buttigieg said on Sunday of the former Indiana governor while speaking at the LGBTQ Victory Fund National Champagne Brunch in Washington. "That's the thing I wish the Mike Pences of the world would understand: That if you have a problem with who I am, your quarrel is not with me. Your quarrel, sir, is with my creator."https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/09/opinions ... index.html

Leviticus says, “Men shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act.” God’s Word says the homosexual act is detestable; it is an abomination. Paul said, “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.” The Bible says homosexuality is against God’s natural law with severe consequences. You can be forgiven of homosexuality. You can be forgiven of any sin. But to be forgiven of a sin, you must admit you have sinned.

Both Trump and Buttigieg have sinned straying from Jesus' footsteps. Sin can be forgiven when that sin is acknowledged to God, of admission of one's sin. Even "unbelievers" can be forgiven.

[1 CAT FAN]

[discussed by quotes that were attributed to Jesus]

I don't know what your point is, CAT - obviously you didn't get mine, either. Here it is, shortened:
1. I picked, somewhat at random, two quotes that have been attributed directly to Jesus, and that I thought were good messages to use as life guidance.
2. I've pointed out that a lot of Christians are not actually followers of Jesus, but have instead followed humans who have made up stuff about what they think Jesus might have said/meant/done. Whether these people call themselves Popes, Bishops, Ministers, Preachers, or TV Evangelists, they're still making stuff up.
3. I've opined that Christians would be better off to follow what Jesus seems to have actually said, instead of following the false prophets.
4. I've opined further that most of the beliefs, practices, rituals, and culture of organized religion is based on what the humans made up, not on what Jesus said.

You fellas are a stubborn group.

'Unbelievers who have been constantly exposed to the gospel, even if only to attack the article and degrade the author, are still going to be accountable for hearing the truth so they have no excuse." "We know the Master’s will. It’s in the Bible. Jesus said, you must repent and believe." "Now, you are even more responsible for what you hear or read, just as we all are."

[O Really]

All that quoting what Jesus was saying, betcha they had a smartphone to record it on to make sure it was quoted correctly and not misinterpreted.

Consider writing about the life and teachings of somebody who died in 1989. Consider further how many of the resources you'd use to write that were not available in CE 30. Oral histories have been around for a long time, and probably in some cases have painted a reasonably good picture. Others not so much, particularly if you blend in some myth, some legend, some exaggeration, and some poetic licence. Now think about how many quotes have been butchered after only a few years, and in sources still available. "Play it again, Sam"? Nope. "Play it." "Do you feel lucky, punk?" Nope. "... you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?" George Washington and the cherry tree? Made up totally by his biographer Parson Weems.

But still, if you give the maximum benefit of doubt, it's entirely possible that the "biographers" of Jesus got at least the general principles right, even if the exact words might be suspect. But then there's "Houston, we have a problem." Wrong quote, attributed to the wrong guy. Should have been "OK Houston, we've had a problem here." And said by Swigert, not Lovell. Got largely distorted by a movie long after the fact - and the error became gospel.

[GoCubsGo]

Beam me up Scotty

http://mentalfloss.com/article/68007/50 ... eally-said


But, but it's gotta be true, it's in the bible!!

[bannination]

[discussed by quotes that were attributed to Jesus]

I don't know what your point is, CAT - obviously you didn't get mine, either. Here it is, shortened:
1. I picked, somewhat at random, two quotes that have been attributed directly to Jesus, and that I thought were good messages to use as life guidance.
2. I've pointed out that a lot of Christians are not actually followers of Jesus, but have instead followed humans who have made up stuff about what they think Jesus might have said/meant/done. Whether these people call themselves Popes, Bishops, Ministers, Preachers, or TV Evangelists, they're still making stuff up.
3. I've opined that Christians would be better off to follow what Jesus seems to have actually said, instead of following the false prophets.
4. I've opined further that most of the beliefs, practices, rituals, and culture of organized religion is based on what the humans made up, not on what Jesus said.

You fellas are a stubborn group.

'Unbelievers who have been constantly exposed to the gospel, even if only to attack the article and degrade the author, are still going to be accountable for hearing the truth so they have no excuse." "We know the Master’s will. It’s in the Bible. Jesus said, you must repent and believe." "Now, you are even more responsible for what you hear or read, just as we all are."

So the best logical course of action is to throw away every bible. Everyone gets to heaven.

[O Really]

Leviticus says..

Oh puh-leeze. Why is the only time you guys quote, reference, or pay any attention the the Old Testament is to trash gays? And anyway, if you want to quote from that book, you might remember that it is not claimed that Moses actually wrote it, nor was it written contemporaneously with Moses' encounters with God. So hearsay testimony at best, made up by a human Priest as a means of exercising control at worst.

So here's a really simple question - I'm interested in your answer, not more quotes. Are humans entitled to make up stuff that Jesus never said?

[Vrede too]

When one is writing with divine guidance historical accuracy is irrelevant. It's going to be perfect, regardless.

For example:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

4. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

5. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

6. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

7. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

8. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

9. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev. 24:10 -16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? Lev. 20:14.

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
Jim7

It was perfect, and anyone violating any part might as well be gay.

[O Really]

Well one would think the overall education level has increased since 300BCE -or so, and that writings from that period might be taken in context. I guess not.

[GoCubsGo]

When one is writing with divine guidance historical accuracy is irrelevant. It's going to be perfect, regardless.

For example:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

4. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

5. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

6. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

7. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

8. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

9. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev. 24:10 -16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? Lev. 20:14.

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
Jim7

It was perfect, and anyone violating any part might as well be gay.

Are you quoting from the West Wing?

[1 CAT FAN]

Leviticus says..

Oh puh-leeze. Why is the only time you guys quote, reference, or pay any attention the the Old Testament is to trash gays? And anyway, if you want to quote from that book, you might remember that it is not claimed that Moses actually wrote it, nor was it written contemporaneously with Moses' encounters with God. So hearsay testimony at best, made up by a human Priest as a means of exercising control at worst.

So here's a really simple question - I'm interested in your answer, not more quotes. Are humans entitled to make up stuff that Jesus never said?

Not trashing gays at all, they'er just as human as everyone else. No one is mistake free. The Bible says homosexuality is against God’s natural law with severe consequences. You can be forgiven of homosexuality. You can be forgiven of any sin. But to be forgiven of a sin, you must admit you have sinned.https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bi ... sexuality/

And NO! Modern day "unbelievers" are not allowed to make stuff up.

The Bible is complete, from what God wanted to be written. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says, “All Scripture is God-breathed. The prophets who wrote the Bible related what they saw and heard in human language, but their message came directly from God.

[Vrede too]

Are you quoting from the West Wing?

Great scene, I like how they have her sitting in order to be even more of an asshole.

I'm almost positive that the Dear Dr. Laura letter came first.

[GoCubsGo]

Are you quoting from the West Wing?

Great scene, I like how they have her sitting in order to be even more of an asshole.

I'm almost positive that the Dear Dr. Laura letter came first.

Yeah, Sorokin stole good stuff.