Pledge Of Allegiance

[indago]

From The Associated Press 22 April 2014:
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A family is suing a New Jersey school district, contending that the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance discriminates against atheist children. ...the phrase, added in 1954, "marginalizes atheist and humanist kids as something less than ideal patriots."
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"under God": added during the era of the McCarthy hearings.

Now, why would we want to be continually reminded of the McCarthy hearings with the "under God" designation in a pledge of allegiance? That period was a dastardly stain on our history. It should be removed from the pledge. Actually, the whole pledge of allegiance should be eliminated.

[Mr.B]

"Actually, the whole pledge of allegiance should be eliminated."

You're correct. Why should citizens of the U.S. pay allegiance to anything/anybody?

We shouldn't be obliged to respect, care or pledge to defend our country, our parents, our siblings, neighbors, our laws, the environment we live in; other people's property or their expressions of thought....we should live in an "all-for-one" society responsible solely for ourselves and what each of us desire.
Oh wait....it's already like....

[Boatrocker]

A pledge of allegiance- given willingly and voluntarily- is a perfectly acceptable profession of loyalty. Being coerced, as in made to stand and recite it from habit- cause you are DIRECTED to do it- is as meaningless and totalitarian as it comes.

[indago]

Considering the term allegiance, and the hierarchical relationship between the people, the State, and the federal government, as recorded in Article Ten of the Bill of Rights, the pledge of allegiance to the flag, and to the United States, should be abolished. All who work for government should be required, every morning, to pledge their allegiance to the people whom they serve; and to reaffirm their oath to uphold the Constitution. This would be a daily reminder of their status, and their servile position. It is predictable that their attitude would change.

[homerfobe]

A pledge of allegiance- given willingly and voluntarily- is a perfectly acceptable profession of loyalty.

All who work for government should be required, every morning, to pledge their allegiance to the people whom they serve;

Nowadays it's all who work against the government. Such as:
The ACLU Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the fags and all who stand for filth and perversion in this great land.
I pledge to fight to erase religion and everything it stands for as well as any laws based on religious principles.
We pledge to represent those who enter this country illegally and demand our government support them and pay for their children's education.
We pledge to represent children who sue their parents in a court of law because their parents dared to discipline them.
We pledge to represent the rights of murderers by protesting that capital punishment is cruel and unusual punishment.
We pledge to represent child molesters and queers so as to give them the right to lead youth groups.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Not being a member of the A frigging CLU, I don't know all of it. Ask Verde and Oreally, they have it memorized.

[O Really]

Interesting that an early meaning of "allegiance" is the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord. Problem with a "pledge" is that there is no way of demonstrating compliance, only by not complying through treason.

[indago]

Some consider pledging to an inanimate object to be a form of idolatry. The Jehovah's Witnesses were the first to win court cases, on the grounds of freedom of religion.

Idolatry is a pejorative term for the worship of an idol or a physical object such as a cult image as a god, or practices believed to verge on worship, such as giving honour and regard to created forms.

idolatry is not limited to religious concepts. It can also refer to a social phenomenon where false perceptions are created and worshipped

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[indago]

Careful with your Rx, though, indago. As sensible as it sounds, it could be taken as perilously close to the "loyalty oaths" of the McCarthy era. Should a government worker who refuses for whatever reason be fired or do they have the 1st Amendment right to be silent?

Nevertheless, it would be a turnabout.

[indago]

Interesting that an early meaning of "allegiance" is the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord.

Yes, and we rejected the feudal society concept that pervaded the European continent, why should we now embrace such a concept here?

[indago]

Francis Bellamy, the author of the Pledge, was a former Baptist minister who preached that Jesus was a socialist. He was allied ideologically with his cousin, Edward Bellamy, one of the most renowned socialists of the late 19th century. Strongly opposed to the evils of capitalism, Francis advocated income taxation, central banking, nationalized education, nationalization of industry, and other tenets of socialism. A primary objective of his was to replace the existing federalist view of the country (where states are sovereign) in the public's mind with a nationalist one that would open the way to creating a centralized government.

When provided the opportunity to write a pledge to the American flag in a campaign to sell flags to public schools, Bellamy turned to the words and principles of socialism. Put simply, if American youth could to be taught “loyalty to the State”, it would pave the way for the socialist utopia that was described in his famous socialist cousin Edward Bellamy’s ‘Looking Backward”. The central idea of “one nation” in the pledge was especially important for achieving his vision of the kind of consolidated, monopoly government necessary for a socialism to be adopted. Additionally, he considered adding the socialist bywords, “liberty, fraternity and equality”, but knew that state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.

As Bellamy believed youth should be trained in devotion to the State, the public schools as a government institution were the perfect setting for planting the requisite fervent loyalty and patriotism. To promote the Pledge nationwide, a “National Public School Celebration” was held 1892 on Columbus Day. It was the first government sponsored propaganda event on behalf of the Pledge of Allegiance. It was a massive campaign that involved government schools and politicians throughout the country. Not only was the Pledge recited en mass for the first time at the behest of government, but public schools were promoted while private schools, especially parochial ones, were criticized.

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[JTA]

.we should live in an "all-for-one" society responsible solely for ourselves and what each of us desire.
Oh wait....it's already like....

Pledge of allegiance aside for a moment you reminded me of something I read a while ago that struck a cord with me, something called reverence - deep respect for someone or something. This article or book I read spoke of how reverence is not something we practice in this day of age. Nothing is sacred. We shit on everything, shrink wrap it in plastic and put it up for sale at Wal-mart. Nobody reveres anything anymore and nothing is sacred. This is evident from graffiti you see scrawled on rocks and stuff when you go up to the mountains.

I'm honestly not really trying to go anywhere with this, just a thought I had, so that's that.

[indago]

Nobody reveres anything anymore and nothing is sacred.

Journalist Paul Blustein reported for the Associated Press 4 July 2004:

Report Urges U.S. Firms to Outsource Jobs — A report by an influential consulting firm is exhorting U.S. companies to speed up "offshoring" operations to China and India, including high-powered functions such as research and development.

On the date 27 September 1992, 60 Minutes' Ed Bradley reported on the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), a taxpayer funded agency that promoted the movement of manufacturing in this country to foreign lands — El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, China, and etc. This agency actively advertised to the American companies that they could get low interest loans to close down their American manufacturing interests and establish manufacturing overseas, and at labor costs of 57 cents per hour.

Journalist Elisabeth Malkin reported for the New York Times 13 November 2006:

The Perot Systems Corporation, which manages information technology for companies, is setting up a technology center in Guadalajara where it expects to employ 270 engineers by the middle of next year. ...a company spokesman, Joe McNamara, said that lower pay for engineers was only one of several reasons Perot Systems decided to set up in Mexico.

Journalist Julie Creswell reported for the New York Times 27 October 2006:

Law Firms Are Starting to Adopt Outsourcing — ...While certain law firms hired companies to handle travel or records storage, most drew the line at sending client billing or confidential documents out of their offices, let alone out of the country. A number of large law firms, though, are starting to tiptoe onto far-flung shores. The latest is Clifford Chance, one of the largest law firms in the world with 29 offices in 20 countries, which will announce plans today to consolidate and move big chunks of its administrative functions like accounting and technological support to an operation in Delhi, India, by next spring. ...While corporate America has embraced sending clerical, customer and technical support functions overseas, law firms have been much more reluctant to do so. Their chief concern is that confidential client documents or information could be leaked, stolen or simply lost.

Journalist Lynnley Browning reported for the New York Times 15 February 2004:

IT is one of the best-kept secrets among tax preparers: a growing number of accountants across the nation are using workers in India to prepare tax returns for clients in the United States. This year, at least 100,000 returns, both federal and state, will be prepared by Indian citizens in places like Bombay and Bangalore, according to L. Gary Boomer, the chief executive of Boomer Consulting, a technology consulting company based in Manhattan, Kan., that has 250 accounting firms as clients. That number of returns is four times larger than last year, and many more times the several thousand just two years ago, said Mr. Boomer, who is also a certified public accountant.

Bloomberg News reported 14 September 2006:

Foreclosures on prime adjustable-rate mortgages rose to a four-year high in the second quarter, a sign that more homeowners with good credit ratings are having trouble paying their bills. The share of the loans entering foreclosure, which occurs when a lender tries to seize property, climbed to 0.27 percent at the end of June, from 0.21 percent three months earlier, according to a report yesterday by the Mortgage Bankers Association in Washington.

It's hard to be reverent to a government that has enabled such losses to Americans.

[Mr.B]

"..we.....live in an "all-for-one" society responsible solely for ourselves and what each of us desire. Oh wait....it's already like...."

"Pledge of allegiance aside for a moment you reminded me of something I read a while ago that struck a cord with me, something called "reverence" - deep respect for someone or something....Nobody reveres anything anymore and nothing is sacred. This is evident from graffiti you see scrawled on rocks and stuff when you go up to the mountains. I'm honestly not really trying to go anywhere with this, just a thought I had, so that's that."

That's what I meant.....You didn't go anywhere bad, you said it better than I did though.

[Bungalow Bill]

I would no more pledge allegiance to the flag than I would to the
Queen of England.

[rstrong]

I would no more pledge allegiance to the flag than I would to the
Queen of England.

What, Liz?

I've never pledged allegiance, nor have the vast majority of Canadians. Immigrants seeking Canadian citizenship are given an oath which includes a declaration of fealty to the Canadian monarch. So are some government and police officials, and in some provinces, lawyers upon admission to the bar. Exceptions have occasionally been allowed to swear allegiance to the country instead.

While I wouldn't pledge allegiance to the monarch, I WOULD pledge allegiance to the country. That does NOT mean "my country right or wrong", or allegiance to the current government. It means I have a duty to disobey orders and laws if I believe they're harmful to the country.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William Stephens Smith, 13 November 1787

That the very founders of your country had this attitude, AFTER taking power, is one of the things that makes American exceptionalism a real, well-justified thing.

[JTA]

I would no more pledge allegiance to the flag than I would to the
Queen of England.

What, Liz?

I've never pledged allegiance, nor have the vast majority of Canadians. Immigrants seeking Canadian citizenship are given an oath which includes a declaration of fealty to the Canadian monarch. So are some government and police officials, and in some provinces, lawyers upon admission to the bar. Exceptions have occasionally been allowed to swear allegiance to the country instead.

While I wouldn't pledge allegiance to the monarch, I WOULD pledge allegiance to the country. That does NOT mean "my country right or wrong", or allegiance to the current government. It means I have a duty to disobey orders and laws if I believe they're harmful to the country.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William Stephens Smith, 13 November 1787

That the very founders of your country had this attitude, AFTER taking power, is one of the things that makes American exceptionalism a real, well-justified thing.

Well put, Mr. rstrong.

With the powers vested in me I now pronounce you an honorary American. Be proud, Canadian, as you have now joined the ranks of Lief Ericson, Braveheart, and Jesus - all honorary Americans.

[Bungalow Bill]

An armed rebellion every twenty years. Sounds a bit much. I always
get a rise out of the old slave master talking about freedom and
watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants. Hmmm. Tom,
you do know you're the tyrant you're speaking about. Jefferson
should be the one grateful that there would be no rebellion. But
we're stuck with him now. Jefferson showed the same glaring
hypocrisy in economic matters--proposing financial caution while
being one of the biggest deadbeat debtors of his time. What a
guy.

To me American exceptionalism is just another self-produced myth,
and I'd imagine it's not even that exceptional. Likely every empire
has felt that its people or values were exceptional and in addition
were right in sync with the will of God. Kind of old news, but I'm sure
a lot of Americans think they're exceptional. Whatever floats your
boat.

[O Really]

Probably a lot of other countries would be "exceptional" if they got to start with the relatively blank slate the US got.

[O Really]

Not to mention having no philosophical, ethical, or practical objection to genocide.

[Bungalow Bill]

I'll go with the Obama cop out, which really isn't one. Yes, Americans are
exceptional, so are Chinese, French, Egyptians, Bolivians, etc. All countries
have their own separate cultures and idiosyncrasies. That's just the way
of the world.