IRS sued for not enforcing campaign restrictions on churches

[rstrong]

On the heels of a presidential election in which many preachers publicly promised to flout Internal Revenue Service rules by endorsing candidates from the pulpit, the Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation filed suit against the IRS for failing to enforce electioneering restrictions against churches and religious organizations.

[O Really]

You may be right about the Catholics, and maybe the Graham organization. But it depends on the legal organization of his group. Might be a church - might not. But I'd agree they're barking up the wrong tree to use these particular people as the most egregious. However, you've got to admit there was (is) a lot of unlawful electioneering going on in quite a few churches. Keep in mind, nobody is saying they don't have a right to campaign - they just can't be tax-exempt and do so. Do you really have a problem with that requirement? Caesar and God and all that?

[O Really]

Some are tax cheats, willfully and intentionally. Others may just be uninformed. Here's a good guide on what is and is not allowed - http://store.churchlawtodaystore.com/chpoacgu.html
It's not rocket surgery.
The problem with the Billy Graham ad is that he has every right to say what he wants as an individual (which he may have done), but he is so closely related to the organization one might wonder how he can speak for himself without also speaking for the organization. Should be interesting.

[Colonel Taylor]

Had a neighbor who once put a cross on his house added some parking spot and had Sunday service at his home and tried to call it a church. Pulled it off for a while, think he may still be in jail though.

[O Really]

Had a neighbor who once put a cross on his house added some parking spot and had Sunday service at his home and tried to call it a church. Pulled it off for a while, think he may still be in jail though.

Probably could have gotten away with it if he hadn't been too lazy/cheap to file the right incorporation papers. There are some ummm, "unusual" organizations getting their church tax exemption all the time.

[billy.pilgrim]

Ain't it amazing how people who never darken the doors of God's House knows exactly how a church should be operated?

Ain't it amazing how people who never darken the doors of God's House group all churches as one collection?

Ain't it amazing how people who never darken the doors of God's House think that anyone who calls themselves a Christian is
responsible for all of history's atrocities committed in the name of Christianity?

Ain't it amazing how people who never darken the doors of God's House rabidly defend (using an example here) Muslims because "all of Islam is not radical", but will readily condemn all "Christians" if just one person does something that breaks the law of man or God?

Ain't it amazing......?

ain't it amazing that some people believe in sky fairies

ain't it amazing that the shy fairy cult wants to use public property to spread their stories

ain't it amazing that the shy fairy cult don't want to pay their fair share in return for all that they expect others to give them


yeah, cults are amazing - hard for the rest of us to understand

[Bungalow Bill]

You've met one supernaturalist, you've basically met them all.

[k9nanny]

No big deal. Just another smear campaign. The church has weathered it before; centuries and centuries before there was ever a
"Freedom from Religion Foundation".

Yeah, but that Church was hardly meant to be a collection of buildings, housing various groups of Christians who couldn't agree on bits of doctrine. And I seriously doubt the original Church was about coffee shops, restaurants, megaplexes, Carowinds, and the Barter Theatre.

Besides, anybody can go downtown and rail about any issue on a street corner. Thats not about a church supporting a candidate, nor is it about government endorsing a particular religion.

[bannination]

No big deal. Just another smear campaign. The church has weathered it before; centuries and centuries before there was ever a
"Freedom from Religion Foundation".

Yeah, by killing everyone that disagreed with them. They don't exactly have that option now.

[bannination]

You've met one supernaturalist, you've basically met them all.

Heaven forbid you should ever find yourself at the end of your rope, no money, no food, and no where else to turn;
just remember, there's always the "supernaturalists" to turn to. Maybe they'll serve you a hot "supernatural" meal,
and give you a "supernatural" bed to sleep in......basically.

Yes, while atheists and agnostics would just turn him away.

Sorry Mr. B., most of us are doers. Most religious folk are prayers. Keep paying for those expensive buildings instead of helping the less fortunate!

[bannination]

Yes, while atheists and agnostics would just turn him away.
What is the name of the local or nearest Atheist/Agnostic relief organization?

By atheist or agnostic you actually mean secular. What kind of help do you require, and I'll be glad to find you the nearest place.

[Colonel Taylor]

You've met one supernaturalist, you've basically met them all.

Heaven forbid you should ever find yourself at the end of your rope, no money, no food, and no where else to turn;
just remember, there's always the "supernaturalists" to turn to. Maybe they'll serve you a hot "supernatural" meal,
and give you a "supernatural" bed to sleep in......basically.

Yes, while atheists and agnostics would just turn him away.

Sorry Mr. B., most of us are doers. Most religious folk are prayers. Keep paying for those expensive buildings instead of helping the less fortunate!

I have no idea what church you belonged to but we are always doing something for somebody from delivering firewood to ramps for the handicapped to delivering food for those in need anything we can do we do!

[billy.pilgrim]

Yeah, but that Church was hardly meant to be a collection of buildings, housing various groups of Christians who couldn't agree on bits of doctrine. And I seriously doubt the original Church was about coffee shops, restaurants, megaplexes, Carowinds, and the Barter Theatre.
I couldn't agree with you more on most of that subject; however, I really don't have a clue as to what goes on inside a "collection of buildings" such as can be found at a "First (denomination) Church".

When a church has to have restaurants, coffee shops, or just serve coffee during services, something is bad wrong.
I only know of one big sprawling church that fits that description. I'm happy where I go to church; we don't indulge in serving man, we serve the Lord.

which brings us full circle

when as atheists gives to the various charities of his choosing, the service goes to those in need

when the thumper gives to some fantastical mythical creature, the service goes into thin air and bull shit

[O Really]

"Ain't it amazing how people who never darken the doors of God's House group all churches as one collection?"

[/quote]
I don't think anybody would say all churches are alike in terms of the good they do in society, or the way they operate. However, with regard to tax exemption, they are all the same. BTW, MrB., not all un-churched people or non-believer people are atheists. Being a real atheist isn't much different from being a believer.

[neoplacebo]

The part I like best is the part where he accuses billy pilgrim of "never darkening the door" of God's house or some such drivel......I thought the church was open and welcoming to everyone; that not even the devil himself could "darken the door" of the church. This reinforces my belief that the great majority of "religious" folks are hypocrites believing themselves to be righteous.

[k9nanny]

Yeah, but that Church was hardly meant to be a collection of buildings, housing various groups of Christians who couldn't agree on bits of doctrine. And I seriously doubt the original Church was about coffee shops, restaurants, megaplexes, Carowinds, and the Barter Theatre.
I couldn't agree with you more on most of that subject; however, I really don't have a clue as to what goes on inside a "collection of buildings" such as can be found at a "First (denomination) Church".

When a church has to have restaurants, coffee shops, or just serve coffee during services, something is bad wrong.
I only know of one big sprawling church that fits that description. I'm happy where I go to church; we don't indulge in serving man, we serve the Lord.

I wasn't singling out any particular edifice or denomination, although I could, and most likely will at some point.
The Greek word ekklesia, which has been incorrectly interpreted as meaning "a church," actually translates as "a calling out," and it was a political, not a religious term. Today, it would mean peacefully assembling in front of the Old Courthouse to defy the rascals within. It doesn't mean A Building.

For the God who made the world and all things therein, and who is the Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Charity, yes. I scarcely think the original intent was one building hosting worshipers who disagree with those in the building down the street.

[rstrong]

Being a real atheist isn't much different from being a believer.

Only if you go by the definition of atheist that the religious tend to cling to, that somehow athiests "have faith" in a lack of a god.

But for most atheists, there's no faith involved. If you tell them that there's an invisible elephant in the kitchen, their not believing you without evidence - having not found an elephant through simply walking around the kitchen - does not not imply a faith in invisible elephantless kitchens. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and it's up to the one making the claim to provide evidence.