Failed prohibition

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Vrede too
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Re: Failed prohibition

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O Really wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:53 pm
So since when does a DWI (OWI in WI) get a person fired if they're not a professional driver?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/jack-del-rio ... 06395.html

That would be a decade or so when DWI got escalated (in perception) from a traffic violation to some criminal-ish moral failing equivalent of domestic or sexual assault. And the definition of "heavy" drinking has decreased. And no beers at lunch for years. Stealthy slippery slope prohibition.
Not saying I agree, but factors that can influence the decision and perhaps make it inevitable:
Fame;
Non-critical job;
First few months of employment;
Not just a little over the limit but so drunk he left the road and hit things;
Attempting to flee the scene;
Extra expectations when managing underage youth;
Big Ten U with a 5-4 record, about to be 5-5 once the Ducks are done with them in Madison :twisted: ;
Alumni dependency;
School employees are sometimes called upon to drive school vehicles as part of their job, or at least have the ability to, with or without passengers like players. I was able to do so with a part time work-study job that did not involve driving, but it came in handy when there was a school-related trip unrelated to my work, etc.

However, I take your point. Jack Del Rio could be a case for DAMM - Drunks Against Mad Mothers - to rally around. ;)
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Re: Failed prohibition

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I've not seen such hysterical nonsense like this about pot since the "Reefer Madness" bullshit back in the 30's. But Pete Sessions, a wingnut Republican from Texas, knows what's best. This shit is like the hysterical lie that Democrats are performing abortions after birth. These goddamn people are crazy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/opinion-vote ... 00374.html

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Re: Failed prohibition

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Dude needs to get out more often.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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O Really wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:42 am
Dude needs to get out more often.
:thumbup: All pols need to get out more often. A position I've held for decades:
Most in US view substance use as health issue, but many states treat it as crime
More than half of states treat drug possession as a felony, even as 75% of Americans say it’s a health problem, poll says


New polling data from the Legal Action Center shows that more Americans than ever think substance use should be treated as a health issue, rather than a criminal justice issue.

But many state and federal laws continue to criminalize substance use – more than half of states still treat drug possession as a felony.

The Legal Action Center poll revealed that in 2024, 75% of Americans thought that substance use disorders (SUD) “should be treated more as a health problem than a criminal problem”, compared with 67% in 2019. The poll also showed rising support for increased spending and access for SUD treatment, including in jails and prisons.
:clap:
... Some jurisdictions, including Chicago, have made naloxone and fentanyl test strips free to the public. And several states decriminalized drug-checking equipment, including fentanyl test strips in 2023, but some still forbid drug checking.
Good on Chicago!
Some policies intended to increase SUD treatment access have been around for a long time, but local and federal governments often fail to provide sufficient funding and attention to make the most of those policies.
Bastards.
... But, Steinberg said, insurance companies almost universally fail to follow these requirements. The American Medical Association’s annual report on the overdose crisis, released last month, repeatedly accused insurance companies of violating federal laws that require them to cover SUD treatment.
Bastards. Execute their CEOs.
New rules intended to more strictly enforce compliance go into effect next year.
Good.
Laws that further criminalize drug use are also making it more difficult for people who use drugs to access care, and could also lead to more overdoses, said Medina. Research shows that people are as much as 40 times more likely to overdose after experiencing incarceration, and very few jails and prisons provide access to SUD treatment.

The Biden administration continued a Trump era policy of criminalizing fentanyl and its analogues, and multiple states have toughened their fentanyl laws in recent years. For example, Colorado passed a law in 2022 that lowered the threshold for felony possession of fentanyl from 4 grams to 1 gram. Researchers predict this change will lead to over 5,000 overdose deaths in five years.
Murderers! :ateeth:
“If you want to actually treat addiction and problematic drug use as a health issue, it’s hypocritical then to want to throw individuals who use drugs in an incarcerated setting,” said Medina, “because we know that that doesn’t do anything to actually solve what is, at the end of the day, a health issue, and in fact diverts resources away from the systems of support that people really need.”
Yup. The mistaken assumption here is that these laws and policies have ever been about treating addiction and problematic drug use. Instead, they're designed for systemic racism, gutting the Constitution and expanding the police/prison industrial complex. With these goals the Drug War has been enormously successful. :cry: :angry-cussing:
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Re: Failed prohibition

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Vrede too wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:14 am

Yup. The mistaken assumption here is that these laws and policies have ever been about treating addiction and problematic drug use. Instead, they're designed for systemic racism, gutting the Constitution and expanding the police/prison industrial complex. With these goals the Drug War has been enormously successful. :cry: :angry-cussing:
No, the laws were never about rehab, but saying they're designed for "...systemic racism..." etc. is like saying the original Prohibition was designed to benefit and enhance the profitability of gangsters. Creating a booming bootleg and related crime industry was an unintended (but predictable) consequence, not part of the plan. I don't really think they sat around and said "what can we do to make life more miserable on Black people and make more money off prisons? Oh yeah, let's criminalize addiction" More likely, IMNVHO, is that from a couple of centuries drunkenness was treated as a moral failing, not an illness. Continue that to drugs, and you've got punishment with no compassion.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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O Really wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:30 pm
Vrede too wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:14 am

Yup. The mistaken assumption here is that these laws and policies have ever been about treating addiction and problematic drug use. Instead, they're designed for systemic racism, gutting the Constitution and expanding the police/prison industrial complex. With these goals the Drug War has been enormously successful. :cry: :angry-cussing:
No, the laws were never about rehab, but saying they're designed for "...systemic racism..." etc. is like saying the original Prohibition was designed to benefit and enhance the profitability of gangsters. Creating a booming bootleg and related crime industry was an unintended (but predictable) consequence, not part of the plan. I don't really think they sat around and said "what can we do to make life more miserable on Black people and make more money off prisons? Oh yeah, let's criminalize addiction" More likely, IMNVHO, is that from a couple of centuries drunkenness was treated as a moral failing, not an illness. Continue that to drugs, and you've got punishment with no compassion.
https://drugpolicy.org/drug-war-history/

1870-1920

The First U.S. Anti-Drug Law Targeted Chinese Immigrant Communities ...

Anti-Cocaine Laws Targeted Southern Black People
... Experts testified that “most of the attacks upon white women of the South are the direct result of a cocaine-crazed Negro brain.”

First Federal Marijuana Law Targeted Mexican Immigrants
Harry Anslinger became the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. He claimed marijuana caused psychosis and violence. Only one of 30 scientists agreed. Anslinger shared a letter with Congress, “I wish I could show you what [marijuana] can do to […] degenerate Spanish-speaking residents.”...

Image
His Southern Strategy wasn't solely about getting White voters to switch to the GOP. It was also about deliberately decimating Black communities with drugs and drug law enforcement.

"unintended"?

Drug War Stats

Drug Arrests
Drug offenses are a leading cause of arrest in the U.S.
These arrests more often impact impact Black, Latinx, and Indigenous people and those with low-income....

Black people are 24% of those arrested due to targeted policing
Black people are 24% of those arrested, but only make up 13% of the U.S. population -- and people of all races use and sell drugs at similar rates. This arrest rate is instead due to targeted policing, surveillance, and punishment tactics.
Source: FBI

... 3 Systemic Impact

... Drug offenses were second most common cause of deportation
After illegal entry, drug offenses were the most common cause of deportation in 2019.
Source: Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse

6 Marijuana Policy
... Black people are 3.6 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana than white people nationally, despite similar rates of use. This disparity is even higher in many states.
Source: ACLU

Report: “Disrupt and Vilify”: The War on Immigrants Inside the U.S. War on Drugs

Report
Factsheet
Marijuana-related factsheet

Search DPA: race and the drug war

"unintended"?

As for making "more money off prisons":

... 5 Financial Impact
$47 billion
is the estimated cost to enforce drug prohibition in the U.S. every year.

... Taxpayers spent $3.3 billion funding the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) in 2021. The agency costs $6,300 per minute to run.
Source: Drug Enforcement Administration
$169 million worth of military equipment to fight drug war in 2022
$169 million worth of military equipment was transferred to law enforcement through the 1033 program in 2022. This program militarizes police with armored vehicles, body armor, and rifles to monitor and punish drug use, sales, and activity.
Source: Defense Logistics Agency

If you think that this doesn't create a massive constituency invested in continuing and expanding Drug War spending, you are very naive about the impact of money. Police/Prison Industrial Complex is not hyperbole, it's fact.
Wiki: Prison–industrial complex

The prison-industrial complex (PIC) is a term, coined after the "military-industrial complex" of the 1950s, used by scholars and activists to describe the many relationships between institutions of imprisonment (such as prisons, jails, detention facilities, and psychiatric hospitals) and the various businesses that benefit from them.

The term is most often used in the context of the contemporary United States, where the expansion of the U.S. inmate population has resulted in economic profit and political influence for private prisons and other companies that supply goods and services to government prison agencies. According to this concept, incarceration not only upholds the justice system, but also subsidizes construction companies, companies that operate prison food services and medical facilities, surveillance and corrections technology vendors, corporations that contract cheap prison labor, correctional officers unions, private probation companies, criminal lawyers, and the lobby groups that represent them. The term also refers more generally to interest groups who, in their interactions with the prison system, prioritize financial gain over rehabilitating criminals.

Proponents of this concept, including civil rights organizations such as the Rutherford Institute and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), believe that the economic incentives of prison construction, prison privatization, prison labor, and prison service contracts have transformed incarceration into an industry capable of growth, and have contributed to mass incarceration. These advocacy groups note that incarceration affects people of color at disproportionately high rates....

The War on Drugs

Marc Mauer, executive director of the criminal justice reform group The Sentencing Project, has argued that the growth and expansion of the prison-industrial complex since the 1970s has its roots in the War on Drugs, which, rather than suppressing the illegal drug trade, has produced a perpetual cycle of drug dealing and imprisonment. This he attributes to a structural feature of the drug trade, a market with perpetually high demand and lucrative potential profits. Mauer describes the "replacement effect", in which no matter how many drug suppliers are incarcerated, other sellers simply take their place; since there is a constant supply of new drug sellers, there is thus a constant supply of potential prison inmates. According to this view, the prison-industrial complex depends on this guarantee of future inmates to ensure its growth and profitability, making prison construction, operation, services, and technology all safe investments.

Professor Angela Davis, one of the most recognized American prison abolition activists, has argued that while some appear to believe that the prison industrial complex is taking the space once filled by the military industrial complex, the aftermath of the War on Terror shows how the links between the military, corporations, and government are growing even stronger. The relationship between these complexes, Davis suggests, shows they are symbiotic, because they mutually support and promote each other, even sharing some technologies. Further, they also share important structural features, both generating immense profits from processes of "social destruction" In essence, Davis argues that the relationship between the military and prison industrial complex can be understood like this: the exact things which are advantageous to corporations, elected officials, and governmental agents, those who have evident stakes in expanding these systems, leads to the devastation of poor and racialized communities as it has throughout American history.
Aside: What an unexpected treat it is to have reason to cite Professor Angela Davis. 8-) :-||

Now the ACLU:

A Tale of Two Countries: Racially Targeted Arrests in the Era of Marijuana Reform

Race and Criminal Justice ...

FAQ
1. What is the War on Drugs?
President Richard Nixon declared a “war on drugs” in 1971. By the 1980s, the link between minorities, drugs, and crime was firmly cemented in American rhetoric. Media hysteria about an unsubstantiated crack epidemic among Black communities prompted Congress to pass draconian mandatory minimum sentencing laws against crack cocaine. The war on drugs has sent millions of people to prison for low-level offenses, and seriously eroded our civil liberties and civil rights while costing taxpayers billions of dollars a year, with nothing to show for it except our status as the world’s largest incarcerator.
2. Is there institutional racism in marijuana arrests?
On average, a Black person is 3.64 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than a white person, even though Black and white people use marijuana at similar rates. In every state, and in over 96 percent of the counties examined in our 2020 analysis, Black people were much more likely to be arrested than white people for marijuana possession. Overall, these disparities have not improved. In 10 states, Black people were more than five times more likely to be arrested.
3. How is police violence a form of institutional racism?
Police violence stems from this country’s history of using police to oppress marginalized people. American policing has never been a neutral institution. It perpetuates racism and oppression by design. From “slave patrols” that used terror and torture against enslaved Black people engaged in uprisings, to armed militia that enforced Black Codes and Jim Crow, to police that subverted labor unions to benefit political elites in the 19th century, policing has always been tied to suppression, surveillance, and control.

What's at Stake
There are significant racial disparities in sentencing decisions in the United States. Sentences imposed on Black males in the federal system are nearly 20 percent longer than those imposed on white males convicted of similar crimes. Black and Latine defendants sentenced in state and federal courts face significantly greater odds of incarceration than similarly situated white defendants and receive longer sentences than their white counterparts in some jurisdictions.

These racial disparities are not unintentional. From the beginning, the war on drugs has decimated the Black community and communities of color, a result of sentencing disparities and selective enforcement of drug laws. Today, there are more Black people under the control of prison and corrections departments than were ever enslaved by this country.

These racial disparities result from disparate treatment of Black and Brown people at every stage of the criminal legal system, including stops and searches, arrests, prosecutions and plea negotiations, trials, sentencing, parole, and probation revocation decisions. Race matters at all phases and aspects of the criminal process, including the quality of representation, the charging phase, and the availability of plea agreements.

Race & the War on Drugs
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Re: Failed prohibition

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Well, that was interesting, useful, and undoubtedly accurate, but discriminatory enforcement doesn't prove discriminatory intent, even if the original premise was wrong. I'm not denying the horrible effects of the decades of discriminatory enforcement of poorly conceived laws. I just tend not to attribute to malice what could be more easily explained by stupidity.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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O Really wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2024 6:57 pm
Well, that was interesting, useful, and undoubtedly accurate, but discriminatory enforcement doesn't prove discriminatory intent, even if the original premise was wrong. I'm not denying the horrible effects of the decades of discriminatory enforcement of poorly conceived laws. I just tend not to attribute to malice what could be more easily explained by stupidity.
:roll: I think I made a pretty strong case that it has been the intent all along. This is not a secret. I shouldn't have had to look it up.

Regardless, as you know better than me intent can be inferred from decades of proven effects absent any smoking gun. There is no "Opps" excuse when society assaults Blacks and other non-Whites for decades.
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Re: Failed prohibition

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neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:15 am
I've not seen such hysterical nonsense like this about pot since the "Reefer Madness" bullshit back in the 30's. But Pete Sessions, a wingnut Republican from Texas, knows what's best. This shit is like the hysterical lie that Democrats are performing abortions after birth. These goddamn people are crazy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/opinion-vote ... 00374.html
Speaking of hysterical nonsense, news from TN:
Tennessee hemp businesses win $735k settlement over illegal seizures

The state of Tennessee and the city of Spring Hill will jointly pay two businesses $735,000 to settle a lawsuit alleging state and local law enforcement wrongfully seized 231 pounds of legal hemp products earlier this year, according to a statement from an attorney representing the businesses.

The settlement follows the Spring Hill police department’s seizure of legal hemp products from Old School Vapor and SAK Wholesale in Columbia, Tenn. last May.
:---P :happy-cheerleaderkid:
Days later, the businesses filed a federal suit seeking the return of products they said were valued at $1.35 million. The lawsuit named Spring Hill Police Chief Don Brit and 11 other officers and employees of the local district attorney’s office, including District Attorney Brent Cooper, whom – the lawsuit claims – articulated the position that legal hemp was “the same damn thing” as marijuana....
The loser cops and prosecutors must be drunks.
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Re: Failed prohibition

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I think I posted once before that TN will legalize bestiality and child porn before they legalize pot. Dubmasses.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 9:26 am
I think I posted once before that TN will legalize bestiality and child porn before they legalize pot. Dubmasses.
Pressure from the moonshine lobby.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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O Really wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 10:55 am
neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 9:26 am
I think I posted once before that TN will legalize bestiality and child porn before they legalize pot. Dubmasses.
Pressure from the moonshine lobby.
I think it opposes pot, too. :o ;)
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Re: Failed prohibition

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O Really wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 10:55 am
neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 9:26 am
I think I posted once before that TN will legalize bestiality and child porn before they legalize pot. Dubmasses.
Pressure from the moonshine lobby.
:lol: Actually you can buy legal moonshine here in the liquor stores.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 5:44 pm
O Really wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 10:55 am
neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 9:26 am
I think I posted once before that TN will legalize bestiality and child porn before they legalize pot. Dubmasses.
Pressure from the moonshine lobby.
:lol: Actually you can buy legal moonshine here in the liquor stores.
Bet you can get illegal moonshine out in the hollers, too.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:15 am
I've not seen such hysterical nonsense like this about pot since the "Reefer Madness" bullshit back in the 30's. But Pete Sessions, a wingnut Republican from Texas, knows what's best. This shit is like the hysterical lie that Democrats are performing abortions after birth. These goddamn people are crazy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/opinion-vote ... 00374.html
This will drive them to drink:
Biden commutes sentences for 2,500 non-violent drug offenders in one of his final acts

Biden said that he has now issued more individual pardons and commutations than any president before him.

The president has yet to announce additional pardons and commutations, but his statement hinted that more are likely to be made public before he leaves office Monday....
:clap: :-|| x 2,500+
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Re: Failed prohibition

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neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 9:26 am
I think I posted once before that TN will legalize bestiality and child porn before they legalize pot. Dubmasses.
I guess legalizing cocaine is out of the question.
Colombian president says cocaine 'no worse than whisky'

Cocaine "is no worse than whisky" and is only illegal because it comes from Latin America, said Colombian President Gustavo Petro during a live broadcast of a government meeting.

Colombia is the world's biggest cocaine producer and exporter, mainly to the United States and Europe, and has spent decades fighting against drug trafficking....

"Scientists have analyzed this. Cocaine is no worse than whisky," he added, suggesting that the global cocaine industry could be "easily dismantled" if the drug were legalized worldwide.

"If you want peace, you have to dismantle the business (of drug trafficking)," he said. "It could easily be dismantled if they legalize cocaine in the world. It would be sold like wine."...
:thumbup: Idk which is "worse", but do believe they are comparable. I've had both on many occasions and did not become addicted. I mostly had great times, but got in more trouble with whiskey. I definitely think the cocaine black market is horrendous.

My local Stop 'n' Rob was ahead of its time. I did not correct them. :twisted: 8-)
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Re: Failed prohibition

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Vrede too wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2025 6:15 pm
neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 9:26 am
I think I posted once before that TN will legalize bestiality and child porn before they legalize pot. Dubmasses.
I guess legalizing cocaine is out of the question.
Colombian president says cocaine 'no worse than whisky'

Cocaine "is no worse than whisky" and is only illegal because it comes from Latin America, said Colombian President Gustavo Petro during a live broadcast of a government meeting.

Colombia is the world's biggest cocaine producer and exporter, mainly to the United States and Europe, and has spent decades fighting against drug trafficking....

"Scientists have analyzed this. Cocaine is no worse than whisky," he added, suggesting that the global cocaine industry could be "easily dismantled" if the drug were legalized worldwide.

"If you want peace, you have to dismantle the business (of drug trafficking)," he said. "It could easily be dismantled if they legalize cocaine in the world. It would be sold like wine."...
:thumbup: Idk which is "worse", but do believe they are comparable. I've had both on many occasions and did not become addicted. I mostly had great times, but got in more trouble with whiskey. I definitely think the cocaine black market is horrendous.

My local Stop 'n' Rob was ahead of its time. I did not correct them. :twisted: 8-)
El Presidente is absolutely goddamn right. If tobacco wre suddenly a schedule 1 drug, people would be killing each other for cigarettes. THey're not dong so because tobacco isn't illegal. Same with cocaine or heroin or anything else you can think of....if those things were legal there would be no incentive for a criminal element to get involved. Plus, most folks (like me) would not decide to do heroin just because it's now legal. Hell, plenty of self righteous Christians don't drink alcohol (they say) even though they easily could. And I've always thought cocaine was over rated; it's nice but I'm just not into that edge of the seat feeling it gives me. Hell, I can hold down the edge of a chair without any assistance.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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Due to greedy (and stupid) state officials, legality of grass hasn't totally ended the criminal black market. They charge so much for permits, licenses, taxes, etc. that it sorta kills the golden goose and makes legal weed more expensive than street stuff.

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Re: Failed prohibition

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neoplacebo wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:09 pm
El Presidente is absolutely goddamn right. If tobacco were suddenly a schedule 1 drug, people would be killing each other for cigarettes. They're not doing so because tobacco isn't illegal. Same with cocaine or heroin or anything else you can think of....if those things were legal there would be no incentive for a criminal element to get involved. Plus, most folks (like me) would not decide to do heroin just because it's now legal. Hell, plenty of self righteous Christians don't drink alcohol (they say) even though they easily could. And I've always thought cocaine was over rated; it's nice but I'm just not into that edge of the seat feeling it gives me. Hell, I can hold down the edge of a chair without any assistance.
I didn't like heroin and it made me throw up.

If it weren't for the cost, hassle, legal risk and nasty importers/dealers I might spend my retirement being a cokehead. Odds are I'd get bored and switch to hallucinogens or just toking, but I'd love to have the option. Maybe I'll emigrate to Colombia. 8-)
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Re: Failed prohibition

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Vrede too wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:25 pm
neoplacebo wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:09 pm
El Presidente is absolutely goddamn right. If tobacco were suddenly a schedule 1 drug, people would be killing each other for cigarettes. They're not doing so because tobacco isn't illegal. Same with cocaine or heroin or anything else you can think of....if those things were legal there would be no incentive for a criminal element to get involved. Plus, most folks (like me) would not decide to do heroin just because it's now legal. Hell, plenty of self righteous Christians don't drink alcohol (they say) even though they easily could. And I've always thought cocaine was over rated; it's nice but I'm just not into that edge of the seat feeling it gives me. Hell, I can hold down the edge of a chair without any assistance.
I didn't like heroin and it made me throw up.

If it weren't for the cost, hassle, legal risk and nasty importers/dealers I might spend my retirement being a cokehead. Odds are I'd get bored and switch to hallucinogens or just toking, but I'd love to have the option. Maybe I'll emigrate to Colombia. 8-)
Never done heroin. I've taken barbiturates like Seconal, Nembutal, Tuinal.....didn't much like any of them other than Seconal (reds). One has to watch ones' ass when using those drugs with alcohol; things can get out hand. Also once took Desoxyn (pure speed) which was a hell of a ride....about 18 hours worth. Never like the heavy psychedelic stuff other than the mild ones like MDA or mushrooms. Never paid for ccocaine; it was always gratis so I graciously accepted each time. For the past thirty years or so, I've stuck with pot and beer. I've got both of those mastered.

Aside......the other day I was thinking about all the hundreds of drugs advertised on tv for virtually any goddamn thing you think you might be suffering from and as far as I know, NONE of those drugs makes anybody "feel" good or even better. I think many of these drugs could easily be modified to include chemicals that make one feel euphoric to one degree or another. Maybe i should have started a drug company. My slogan would have been "Don't accept things with a sigh; just get high."

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