Can Someone Explain This to Me?

[O Really]

And yet, no one can explain why all this BS is "patriotic"!

You're right. No one can. Because it's not patriotic - it's not even rational. It's not even an "oppressive" or new law, no political ideology involved, just a matter of a fee for use of public land for private purposes. No different in any way from any other user fee. Maybe they think everything federal/state/public owned should be free, which might be a decent argument if they didn't also scream about not wanting to pay taxes and fund the parks, gamelands, and wilderness. But even a right-wing idiot ought to understand the difference in camping, hiking, hunting, whatever vs. using the land for commercial purposes. I'm thinking you can't run up a million dollar use bill just by letting the family milk cows run loose for a little wild grass.

[Boatrocker]

ODS is becoming a pandemic amongst the RWNJs.

[GoCubsGo]

And yet, no one can explain why all this BS is "patriotic"!

You're right. No one can. Because it's not patriotic - it's not even rational. It's not even an "oppressive" or new law, no political ideology involved, just a matter of a fee for use of public land for private purposes. No different in any way from any other user fee. Maybe they think everything federal/state/public owned should be free, which might be a decent argument if they didn't also scream about not wanting to pay taxes and fund the parks, gamelands, and wilderness. But even a right-wing idiot ought to understand the difference in camping, hiking, hunting, whatever vs. using the land for commercial purposes. I'm thinking you can't run up a million dollar use bill just by letting the family milk cows run loose for a little wild grass.

Yeah, I know. I was trying to get the Doc to respond, he's a sensible guy but he keeps posting RWNJ blog crapola without a logic pattern. If there was a rational explanation I thought he could provide it. Guess not.

[GoCubsGo]

Cronyism perhaps?

Infowars.com

Have another snort

More from J.E. Dyer:

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Maldives sighting: A piece of the MH370 puzzle?
Asian mysteries: MH370 and the Iranian naval flotilla
Defense cuts and the fragile, undefended bubble we now live in
The Obama administration’s attack on the U.S. financial system

RWNJ blogger, nothing more.

[neoplacebo]

I don't believe this issue is over; it's not in character for the US government to just forgive a million dollar debt. As for why they've let this ranchero slide for twenty years, that's anybody's guess. Perhaps the BLM is so far down in the abyss of federal foolishness that it takes that long to bring an issue of theirs to the fore. I think this is what will happen......the Defense Advanced Research and Projects Agency (DARPA) will soon set up a large microwave generator in close enough proximity to the deadbeat rancheros herds to render them all into steaks and burgers in a matter of about twelve minutes. After that, the FDA will come in and condemn all the meat for not being inspected before it was cooked. The twenty years of free grazing will come to a sudden and definitive end. Also, within ten to twelve business days, the ranchero will receive his twenty year grazing invoice which will include interest and penalties. It would be just as "patriotic" for his supporters to help him out with the bill. ok

[Another]

I think I might be able to shed some light on this Nevada rancher affair—or maybe not, who knows? I won’t get into who owns what, or who has what “rights.” Clinven Bundy says the land he claims “rights” to was in his family since the late 1800s. He might have been assuming the homesteading principle. The Cliff Notes version is just this: if you settle and develop land, it’s yours to keep. Of course, his ancestors might have gotten it from the federal government via the Homesteading Acts (1860s); I’ve no idea, and no idea why the federal government could assume it owned the land parceled out, but never mind all that. Just giving you a sense of what his reasoning might have been based on history, right or wrong. Now the BLM says they own it, and say he’s grazing cattle illegally. Guess they’ve got the pieces of paper, and Bundy doesn’t.

The BLM “reclassified” the land the Bundy farm in 1993. “Reclassified,” of course, is bureacratese for, “This is ours now; get lost!” Kind of like what they told the Indians, who were here before any of our ancestors. They didn’t have pieces of paper, either.

This is the interesting question. If the BLM owns the land, and if he’s been defying them and court orders all this time why did it take them 21 years to do something about it? Why now?

My information comes rather roundabout. Let’s just say I have a relative in the area who knows a paralegal in a law firm called Lionel, Sawyer & Collins. My cousin tells me (email) that this is the most prestigious firm in Nevada. One of its associates is Rory J. Reid, none other than a son of Nevada’s powerful Senator Harry Reid (D). You can look all this up; it checks out.

http://www.lionelsawyer.com/index.cfm?p ... le&atid=49

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_Reid

A former aide of Harry Reid’s—Neil Kornze—now directs the BLM. Hm.

Anyway, my relative’s claim is that the firm has a certain client, ENN Energy Group, that recently paid $4.5 billion to Clark County, NV, for 9,000 acres of land to build a solar energy facility on—you guessed it—the land Cliven Bundy says is his, that Reid’s son brokered the deal with his old man’s full knowledge and assistance. Now the plot really thickens. ENN Energy is a Chinese corporation. Chinese corporations are owned by the Communist Chinese government, in case you didn’t know that. No free enterprise there. (None in the U.S. either, but that’s another story.)

This isn’t the first suggestion I’ve seen about the Chinese making inroads on U.S. soil. (Sorry, don’t have specifics at my fingertips, it’s been a while.) If this is true, it doesn’t surprise me any that it’s being done behind closed doors, like a lot of the really important stuff. Think: TPP.

Sources for the Chinese connection?

I found this first: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/bundy- ... id/565328/

I don’t imagine you liberals care much for Newsmax, though. Not “reputable” enough (i.e., not corporate media or pro-government). So maybe this will do instead:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/ ... 6D20120831

Reuters is European. They tend to tell the truth more than U.S. media. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying I know every bit of this for fact. It's just interesting. It fits nicely with globalization, which has decimated the U.S. manufacturing base and pretty much wrecked things for the middle class. Not to mention open the borders, since NAFTA also destroyed Mexico’s agricultural base. My relative says a Chinese plant will create jobs. But not for U.S. citizens. We can’t have that. Is it really any wonder some of these folks are starting to rebel? In a country with something like 47 million people on food stamps or other government assistance a lot of folks probably figure they don’t have anything to lose. But I’m off the subject.

This is also interesting:

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/ ... TN_444.pdf

Hope it downloads, assuming anyone is interested. Took forever at this end. My relative sent a couple more links, but they weren’t working a while ago. I guess BLM took them down because too many “yahoos” were accessing them.

The BLM document is a pretty generic study and doesn’t mention any Chinese energy corporation (that I saw, I didn’t read the whole godawful thing). But notice the date. This would answer my question, Why now? At this moment in time? when if the government’s story is true the Bundys have been grazing cattle on that land illegally for 21 years. Put two and two together. It usually adds up to four.

If the Reids have brokered a deal with a Chinese corporation behind closed doors to develop that land while invoking legalisms for the peons, this means they are up to their asses in corruption. U.S. lawyers-politicians. Surprise, surprise. But if there really is $4.5 billion on the line, yeah, you can bet this isn’t over. Wouldn’t want to be one of the Bundys or one of the “yahoos” when the SWAT teams show up to do their masters’ bidding.

[Bungalow Bill]

Sounds like just an old-fashioned ripoff artist who will keep on keepin'
on with his theft until someone stops him from doing so. The feds should
do so. Take it back to the courts and take him down.

[O Really]

Thanks for the insight, Another. But without regard to whether there are Chinese/Reid deals or whether they are up to their asses in corruption, the fact remains that these people are running a commercial operation unlawfully on federal land, and have been legally nagged over it for some time. Does it really make any difference if there's a Chinese deal or not?

Apparently the NC highway patrol is having a fund-raising escapade for the next couple of weeks, named a "slow-down."
They stop people for speeding and other highway violations (undoubtedly including driving while Mexican) that are generally tolerated the rest of the year. But nevertheless, if you're speeding, you're speeding, and have no real defense that it wasn't enforced before. So if it turns out that Senator Burr gets a kickback from the fines, does that really change the essence of the violation? Is a guy driving 80 in a 65 zone less guilty just because Burr gets a cut from his fine?

[Wneglia]

Thanks for the insight, Another. But without regard to whether there are Chinese/Reid deals or whether they are up to their asses in corruption, the fact remains that these people are running a commercial operation unlawfully on federal land, and have been legally nagged over it for some time. Does it really make any difference if there's a Chinese deal or not?

Apparently the NC highway patrol is having a fund-raising escapade for the next couple of weeks, named a "slow-down."
They stop people for speeding and other highway violations (undoubtedly including driving while Mexican) that are generally tolerated the rest of the year. But nevertheless, if you're speeding, you're speeding, and have no real defense that it wasn't enforced before. So if it turns out that Senator Burr gets a kickback from the fines, does that really change the essence of the violation? Is a guy driving 80 in a 65 zone less guilty just because Burr gets a cut from his fine?

So what you are saying is that all laws on the books should be enforced, right?

[O Really]

So what you are saying is that all laws on the books should be enforced, right?

In theory, either enforced or removed. But from a practical standpoint, not all laws are equal in importance and the amount of resources available for enforcement.

[Boatrocker]

Senator Harry Reid and a Chinese company building a solar plant are behind a standoff between federal agents and a Nevada rancher.

Yeah, I know. Snopes is a bunch of commit pinko fags, supported by the Islamic Brotherhood.

[Another]

Thanks for the insight, Another. But without regard to whether there are Chinese/Reid deals or whether they are up to their asses in corruption, the fact remains that these people are running a commercial operation unlawfully on federal land, and have been legally nagged over it for some time. Does it really make any difference if there's a Chinese deal or not?

Apparently the NC highway patrol is having a fund-raising escapade for the next couple of weeks, named a "slow-down."
They stop people for speeding and other highway violations (undoubtedly including driving while Mexican) that are generally tolerated the rest of the year. But nevertheless, if you're speeding, you're speeding, and have no real defense that it wasn't enforced before. So if it turns out that Senator Burr gets a kickback from the fines, does that really change the essence of the violation? Is a guy driving 80 in a 65 zone less guilty just because Burr gets a cut from his fine?

First, I've check out the links and it's clear, the "China connection" doesn’t pan out. So be it. If it’s a subsidized U.S. corporation called Solar First instead of a Chinese outfit, that doesn’t change the fact of cronyism, though, or whether it should be exposed to public view.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, since I don’t live there and might just retire here (outside the U.S.), but what bothers me about today’s U.S. liberals is how you guys bow before authority, without really asking any questions. So Bundy's breaking the law as written. You haven’t asked whether it’s a just law, or how it was put in place, or how it was used to grab land. It looks like the BLM simply grabbed the man's land back in 1993 and then stuck him with the bill. He's pissed. Do you blame him?

Btw, there are so many laws on the books that there's no way to enforce them all. Many of them are unenforceable (drug laws are an example). All that can be done is enforce them selectively ere and there to raise funds or make examples of anyone who's pissed off some bigwig who can pull strings. The driving in N.C. case is an excellent example!

By the way, the millions of illegal aliens living in the U.S. are also breaking the law. Are you proposing to round them up and send them back to Mexico? Don't misread: I'm not saying they should. That ship's sailed. I'm just wondering about your consistency.

I'm also wondering, do you think civil disobedience is never justified. Is that your view?

[O Really]

Everything is subject to its context, and "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..." I have no problem with questioning, or protesting, or ignoring laws, but this isn't a civil disobedience matter. Civil disobedience is a willful violation of a law, with full understanding of the consequences and a willingness to accept those consequences. This guy is no civil disobedient. There are several arguments he might make that the fee should be waived, reduced, or that for some reason it shouldn't apply to him as being grandfathered. But (according to the reports) he's claiming violation of (unspecified) rights that apparently don't exist anywhere but in the imaginations of him and his fellow, ummmm "patriots" and a laughable claim of oppressive enforcement when all they've done is send him nasty-grams for 20 years. Has he filed legal responses to prior notices? Has his attorney set forth his objections in court? I'm thinking he's more likely used the BLM notices as toilet paper.

And no, all laws can't be enforced equally. In fact, the vast majority of laws are self-enforced by a citizenry that generally believes in a society of laws. Most laws don't require much police or court action to force a rebellious population to bow to the whip.

[O Really]

There are better examples of governmental overreach, like this one... http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man ... ths-n81306
18 months in prison for pissing on the Alamo wall? Active prison sentence? 18 months, seriously? Jeez, only in San Antonio, where every other business is named "Alamo" and where no photos of the Alamo showing the close bordering of the hotels around it are allowed.

[Bungalow Bill]

I'd take any claims that Bundy makes with a large grain of salt. The federal
courts have already made their decision, now it's up for the BLM to enforce
it. Go get 'im.

[Another]

Everything is subject to its context, and "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..." I have no problem with questioning, or protesting, or ignoring laws, but this isn't a civil disobedience matter. Civil disobedience is a willful violation of a law, with full understanding of the consequences and a willingness to accept those consequences. This guy is no civil disobedient. There are several arguments he might make that the fee should be waived, reduced, or that for some reason it shouldn't apply to him as being grandfathered. But (according to the reports) he's claiming violation of (unspecified) rights that apparently don't exist anywhere but in the imaginations of him and his fellow, ummmm "patriots" and a laughable claim of oppressive enforcement when all they've done is send him nasty-grams for 20 years. Has he filed legal responses to prior notices? Has his attorney set forth his objections in court? I'm thinking he's more likely used the BLM notices as toilet paper.

And no, all laws can't be enforced equally. In fact, the vast majority of laws are self-enforced by a citizenry that generally believes in a society of laws. Most laws don't require much police or court action to force a rebellious population to bow to the whip.

Okay, but if you get rid of consistency you end up with what we have: selective enforcement which is bound to be political. I thought I made that point. Whether this is a case of civil disobedience or not, well, yeah, his books aren't exactly perfectly balanced by today's standards, but he says he never signed anything; the feds just came in and said, "We own this now." No one's disputed that. I don't know what it is with this Bundy fellow, why this case became a flashpoint. Maybe he's got charisma. Who knows? There are better cases. Why don't folks rally in support of the victims of police brutality in places like Albuquerque NM where cops shot a homeless guy in cold blood just a couple weeks ago. There was a protest out there that turned violent; would like to have seen "patriots" out for that, but maybe going to bat for a homeless guy instead of a rancher isn't their style. But you "progressives" should have been out in force. If that's too far away, there's another case in your back yard, where a psychopathic cop shot a schizophrenic kid who was restrained saying "We don't have time for this." You heard of this case? It happened in Boiling Springs Lakes, N.C.

http://www.alternet.org/cop-kills-schiz ... h-carolina
http://filmingcops.com/parents-devastat ... ill-child/

I'm trying to make a point here, and so far you guys aren't getting it. There's a bigger picture here. Yes, all sane people want to live in a society of laws. But for starters, there are too many laws in the U.S. And second, "rule of law" is bullshit if it doesn't apply to the political class (think Harry Reid, who is clearly trying to create his own little fiefdom out there) or to government employees (cops). All you have to do is go to YouTube and search for police Brutality or police Violence and see how many hits you get, easy as I've just done it for you. Surely you don't believe these are all made up hoaxes by "right wingers"!

The point I'm making is that a lot of ordinary folks are fed up with government run amuck and getting more and more violent. You can't just dismiss them as "right wing extremists" or "nutjobs." Well, you can, that's your choice, but not if you want to be taken seriously. These are your coworkers, your neighbors, the ordinary people you see on the street.

I saw a report just recently stating that Americans are now paying more in taxes than they are for food. Ordinary Americans, that is, not one-percenters (the real "one percent" is much smaller than that). I have to file even though I'm living in a foreign country just now; the U.S. is the one nation (I think) that taxes its citizens living and earning income abroad, and I'm also subject to FATCA accounting, much to the chagrin of my banker here -- I had to have some strings pulled just to open a savings account. The reason: IRS bullying of foreign banks.

Now I'm wondering, since progressives dominate this site -- do you think ordinary folks have legitimate gripes when government agencies simply take their land -- no one's disputed, that's what happened in 1993 -- or cops shoot their kids in cold blood, or when all Americans are being taxed into oblivion to pay corporate and federal parasites while they cook up unethical and possibly illegal deals behind closed doors? Or are you going to go on harping about "laws" that don't apply to the sociopaths in public office, or who wear uniforms with badges?

[Boatrocker]

I see a lot of crap from the RW phrasebook, but a great dearth of fact and substance. Wingnut nation is still spraying spit and shitting kittens about the whole Harry and Rory Reid business, which is 100% bullshit. Made up. Lie. I've been listening to this shit in the office all week, pissing people off when I point out facts. This is a pure example of RW reactionary mud-slinging, bereft of facts.

[Mr.B]

"or when all Americans are being taxed into oblivion"

Hyperbole.

Hyperbole huh? Here's a few "hyperboles".

Bagel Tax — New York
Ordering a New York bagel requires some serious choices — plain, onion, poppy seed, cinnamon raisin, and many more — then, you have to select cream cheese, which also comes in many varieties. But, you’re not done yet … there is another decision you have to make — whole or sliced. For the privilege of having your bagel cut for you, the state of New York will charge you an eight or nine cent tax.

Vending Machine Fruit Tax — California
The Golden State produces many delicious fruits — from grapes to strawberries to mangoes. But, if you happen to purchase California fruit while in California, avoid making your purchase from a vending machine. Buying fruit from a vending machine adds a 33 percent tax to your price. Of course, you should also ask yourself why anyone would ever buy fruit from a vending machine.

Candy Tax — Illinois
Chicago’s tax on candy is five times the rate of normal food! But, what counts as candy? Apparently, items prepared with flour are considered food, not candy. So, while lollipops, Reese’s, and gum drops are taxed as candy, Kit Kat bars, Twizzlers, and ice cream are classified as food.

Jock Tax — California
Sports rivalries are all fun and games until one team starts taxing another. Following the Los Angeles Lakers’ loss to the Chicago Bulls in the 1991 NBA finals, California issued the first ever Jock Tax against athletes from Chicago. Now adopted by 40 of the 50 states, athletes must pay taxes to any states where the athletes earned income, specifically money earned on games played in those states. For the 2006-2007 sports year, California pulled in a whopping $102 million from visiting athletes.

Crack Tax — Tennessee
Yes … that’s crack cocaine. The award for the most bizarre tax goes to the state of Tennessee which, in 2005 decided to tap into a new source of tax revenue: trade of illegal drugs. Tennessee passed a law requiring drug dealers to pay a tax of $3.50 per gram of marijuana, $50 per gram of cocaine, and $250 per gram of meth and crack cocaine. Drug taxes were to be paid anonymously at the state revenue office. Surprisingly, between 2005 and 2009 when the tax was in effect, the state of Tennessee managed to collect more than $6 million in revenue from the crack tax.

[Mr.B]

Playing Card Tax – Alabama
Alabama charges a tax of 10 cents on any deck of cards that contains “no more than 54 cards.”

Nude Tax – Utah
One doesn’t associate Utah with strip clubs. Perhaps this is because the state levies a 10 percent tax on establishments in which “nude or partially nude individuals perform any service,” that must be paid on top of all other state taxes.

Blueberry Tax – Maine
The state imposes a three-quarter-cent per-pound tax on “anyone who grows, purchases, sells or processes” the state’s most famous fruit: blueberries. Vermont doesn’t have such a tax on maple syrup, in case you’re wondering.

Tattoo Tax – Arkansas
Tattoos and body piercings are subject to an additional six percent sales tax in Arkansas.

Maryland to Tax Rain
This is exactly what it sounds like. Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley pushed a bill through the state legislature that actually taxes rain.

Taxing Cyberspace
Minnesota, for example, is implementing a 6.875 percent sales tax on digital audio sales over the Internet. This will include things like music, audio recordings of books and speeches, and ringtones. This definitely continues the national trend of states looking to put their hands into the pockets of consumers who transact business online.

[O Really]

"or when all Americans are being taxed into oblivion"

Hyperbole.

Hyperbole huh? Here's a few "hyperboles".
Are you laughing at theses? Seriously? Or just presenting a way to make them look laughable?
Bagel Tax — New York
Ordering a New York bagel requires some serious choices — plain, onion, poppy seed, cinnamon raisin, and many more — then, you have to select cream cheese, which also comes in many varieties. But, you’re not done yet … there is another decision you have to make — whole or sliced. For the privilege of having your bagel cut for you, the state of New York will charge you an eight or nine cent tax. Sounds silly? No, it's because generally there's no tax on food in New York, but there are sales tax on services. If you bought a bagel at your local Ingles's you'd still get charged 7 cents tax, and it wouldn't be cut nor as good a bagel.

Vending Machine Fruit Tax — California
The Golden State produces many delicious fruits — from grapes to strawberries to mangoes. But, if you happen to purchase California fruit while in California, avoid making your purchase from a vending machine. Buying fruit from a vending machine adds a 33 percent tax to your price. Of course, you should also ask yourself why anyone would ever buy fruit from a vending machine. Fresh fruit is not generally taxed in Cali, but is considered "packaged" if sold through a vending machine. However, you can buy it from a grocery and not be taxed. Unlike, say, NC, in which you'd still fork over the sales tax no matter where you buy it.

Candy Tax — Illinois
Chicago’s tax on candy is five times the rate of normal food! But, what counts as candy? Apparently, items prepared with flour are considered food, not candy. So, while lollipops, Reese’s, and gum drops are taxed as candy, Kit Kat bars, Twizzlers, and ice cream are classified as food. So they defined what "candy" is for tax purposes. Would you prefer they make it up as they go along? Or do you really call ice cream "candy"?

Jock Tax — California
Sports rivalries are all fun and games until one team starts taxing another. Following the Los Angeles Lakers’ loss to the Chicago Bulls in the 1991 NBA finals, California issued the first ever Jock Tax against athletes from Chicago. Now adopted by 40 of the 50 states, athletes must pay taxes to any states where the athletes earned income, specifically money earned on games played in those states. For the 2006-2007 sports year, California pulled in a whopping $102 million from visiting athletes. $102 mill collected for the citizens of Cali from non-citizens is a bad thing?

Crack Tax — Tennessee
Yes … that’s crack cocaine. The award for the most bizarre tax goes to the state of Tennessee which, in 2005 decided to tap into a new source of tax revenue: trade of illegal drugs. Tennessee passed a law requiring drug dealers to pay a tax of $3.50 per gram of marijuana, $50 per gram of cocaine, and $250 per gram of meth and crack cocaine. Drug taxes were to be paid anonymously at the state revenue office. Surprisingly, between 2005 and 2009 when the tax was in effect, the state of Tennessee managed to collect more than $6 million in revenue from the crack tax. Making $6millon for the citizens of the state collected from criminals is a bad thing?